[Second_in_pie]

Only if you ignore the alarmingly high fatality rate amongst some usually low-risk demographics...

Pregnant women is the only traditionally low-risk demographic that's been shown to have adverse affects from the disease. All the other deaths have been relatively isolated incidents that have just gotten media coverage because it's something to blow up about.

Because even if this is a 'test run', it has exposed just how incompetent our system would be if there was a spanish-flu style pandemic. I'd say that's something to worry about, wouldn't you?

Calling it a test run doesn't mean we should throw logic out the window. Why would the government try to immunize the entire country when the same results could probably come from simply being more cautious? If not more, because people could be lured into a false sense of security while a large amount of the population remains unvaccinated.

And trying to role the vaccine out to everyone also gets in the way of those higher risk groups. People are being told that it's paramount they get the vaccine, while that substantially increases wait times by people like the ill, elderly or pregnant women that are more at risk. If the general population could be protected by things like community centre and school closures, on top of being told to take precautions but not freak out, it'd not only save the government money but would also make this whole experience a lot less painful.

 

[kettal]

Ever heard of herd immunity? That involves having as many vaccinated people as possible, and is considered to be the most effective way to minimize the damage of a disease.

I'm unsure what you mean by school and community centre closures? Which schools and community centres would you say should be closed by now? All of them?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Ever heard of herd immunity? That involves having as many vaccinated people as possible, and is considered to be the most effective way to minimize the damage of a disease.

It may be the most effective way to minimize the damage, but that doesn't mean it's always the best way to.
If we've already realized we can't manufacture enough of the vaccine for the population until it's already gone, what's the point of still trying to get it to all the population? Unless we're giving people half-doses (more like 1/5 does) or diluting them with water, I don't see why we should be taking that approach. Because of the H1N1 panic, everyone wants a vaccine. The government can't provide that, so why aren't they finding alternative ways to solve the problem? Why don't we just save the vaccine for those at-risk groups and take precautions to protect the general public as much as possible? Prevent disease transmission by closing more at-risk schools and public places where the disease can easily be transmitted.

I'd usually agree with you that we should get the vaccinations out, but immunizing everyone just isn't a practical solution in this case. And the government has shown no intent of finding alternative solutions.

 

[kettal]

I'd usually agree with you that we should get the vaccinations out, but immunizing everyone just isn't a practical solution in this case. And the government has shown no intent of finding alternative solutions.

The very fact that there aren't enough vaccines to go around is the problem I find troubling. If this was anything more dangerous, we'd be screwed.

We need to figure out what's going wrong with the vaccine program and fix it ASAP.

 

[grey]

Rather than getting your information on these things from random internet sites or oft-befuddling news reports, I advise you to consult some sources that are slightly more reputable (like this), or just pick up any introductory immunology textbook. Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for almost a century, and flu vaccines with squalene adjuvant has been used in Europe for more than a decade already. That FDA has not approved such vaccines says nothing about its safety but instead is a result of the difference in evaluation standards between FDA and EMEA; there has been many drugs that are not approved in the US but are in Europe, and vice versa.

Uh-huh. Tinfoil hats aside:

"Health Canada has authorized the sale of Arepanrixâ„¢ H1N1 based on limited clinical testing in humans..." "There is currently limited clinical experience with Arepanrixâ„¢ H1N1..." "There is very limited experience with AS03-adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine in children between 3 and 9 years of age, and no experience in children less than 3 years of age or in children and adolescents between 10 and 17 years of age." "No data have been generated in pregnant women with Arepanrixâ„¢ H1N1 nor with the prototype AS03 adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine." "No data have been generated in breast-feeding women." "No studies on the effects on the ability to drive and use machines have been performed." "Among Arepanrixâ„¢ H5N1 or Pandemixâ„¢ H5N1 recipients, five (out of 9,873) had fatal serious adverse events..." Source: http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Arepanrix_PIL_CAPA01v01.pdf


Well done, Canada.

 

[Swarley]

The very fact that there aren't enough vaccines to go around is the problem I find troubling. If this was anything more dangerous, we'd be screwed.

We need to figure out what's going wrong with the vaccine program and fix it ASAP.

From http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/10/29/vaccine-flu.html:

“We do not have as much as we had hoped at this point, but right now in Canada there are more doses out there than any other country in the world per capita,”

So we're doing pretty well here. I don't think there's anything "going wrong" necessarily. I"m sure we could spend 10x what we currently spend on vaccine production and have enough production capacity... but I bet that would've been criticized as a "government boondoggle" prior to this year.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

From http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/10/29/vaccine-flu.html:

“We do not have as much as we had hoped at this point, but right now in Canada there are more doses out there than any other country in the world per capita,”

So we're doing pretty well here. I don't think there's anything "going wrong" necessarily. I"m sure we could spend 10x what we currently spend on vaccine production and have enough production capacity... but I bet that would've been criticized as a "government boondoggle" prior to this year.

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss why we were wrongly told by the government that there would be vaccine available for the general public starting this week, and the corollary issue of why 2 weeks ago it was government policy to scare the shit out of the general public and brand people as criminals if they had 2nd thoughts about whether to get vaccinated, and now we are told that "it's just the flu, nothing to worry about".

What changed in the past two weeks? Were they lying then or are they lying now?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Well, technically, the vaccine is available to the general public

 

[OttoSchloss]

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss why we were wrongly told by the government that there would be vaccine available for the general public starting this week, and the corollary issue of why 2 weeks ago it was government policy to scare the shit out of the general public and brand people as criminals if they had 2nd thoughts about whether to get vaccinated, and now we are told that "it's just the flu, nothing to worry about".

What changed in the past two weeks? Were they lying then or are they lying now?

Not really a lie. Apparently the vaccine takes longer to grow than anticipated by manufacturers.

 

[golodhendil]

Uh-huh. Tinfoil hats aside:

Good job with the whole quoting out of context thing. Your tinfoil hat really is shielding you well from rationality.

While the clinical results with the current H1N1 vaccine is "limited" (just like how the pre-release clinical results for each particular seasonal flu vaccine is "limited"), the cumulative clinical data from flu vaccines over the years are overwhelmingly indicative of the safety of flu vaccines. The squalene-adjuvanted vaccine provides extra variables to consider, and the limited data of squalene on pregnant women is true, which is why Canada is not (yet) recommending the adjuvanted vaccine for pregnant women, mostly to avoid giving more excuses to antivaxxers like you or Joseph Mercola (from which most of your talking points are coming from) to fearmonger and keep people from getting the vaccine. But rather than lack of data showing it is safe, it is really more of a case of lack of data showing it is not unsafe, because the known biology of immunology and clinical experience with squalene-adjuvanted vaccines do not suggest any likely adverse consequences resulting from it. This speaks to a more important point: while clinical data for this particular vaccine is still coming, the policy decision is based on extensive clinical data from squalene-adjuvanted flu vaccines that has been applied widely in Europe for more than a decade and from trials of various flu, HBV, HCV, CMV and even HIV vaccines, coming from all age groups ranging from infants through to the elderly. Scientists and clinicians in the US have urged the FDA for years to follow Europe's lead and approve adjuvanted vaccines, and WHO has already officially recommended using the adjuvanted vaccine.

Quacks and conspiracy-theorists can always find points of concern to raise, because science has an inherent uncertainty that can never eliminate all risk. All we can do is make the best judgement from rigorous and objective evidence while doing due surveillance and monitoring. And the overwhelming evidence in this case is that the vaccine is safe, effective, necessary, and the adjuvanted formulation is important, if not vital, for ensuring that there is adequate supply of antigen for all the people of the world, especially those in the developing world.

 

[grey]

I quoted articles from the Canadian Press, Bloomberg, and even a GSK news release, and now I suddenly have an anti-vaccination agenda (I have all my shots, fyi). Was it that one Flu Wiki link? It looked pretty shady at a glance. I'll bet that was it, wasn't it? It just kind of bugs me that I literally have a tab open to quackwatch.com at the same time I'm being accused of using talking points. At worst, I'm jumping to improbable conclusions. Also, you seem to be working-in the strawman argument that I'm against adjuvants in general, so I'd like to end that one right here. I'm clearly focusing on squalene.

Here's what I'm seeing:

Sep. 03, 2009: The governments of Australia, the United States and several European countries are planning to immunize their citizens with a standard vaccine starting in October. Canadians, on the other hand, will wait until mid-November before the version with adjuvant arrives, according to health officials.

Source: The Globe and Mail

This looks like the Harper government never got around to ordering the vaccine until some time in August or July, and now we're using a vaccine containing squalene adjuvants, and I don't know how else to represent the GSK leaflet, but "limited clinical trials" doesn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. It seems completely unnecessary when there was a perfectly acceptable non-adjuvanted flu vaccine. Given the choices, I'd rather have thimerosal than squalene based on 5 minutes of Google.

“The goal in Canada is to provide as much vaccine as early as possible,” Dr. Butler-Jones said. “We are waiting on the trials as with every country.” Dr. Butler-Jones joined Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq at the press conference, which was intended to hype $135-million in previously announced funds for building and renovating health facilities in first nations communities.

Ironic that they told Canada to wait until November in a First Nations community which will no doubt be decimated yet again by European disease. The 1918 flu peaked in October. Vaccine takes two weeks to kick in, assuming it works. So way to miss the flu season and waste money, although it was good stimulus, I suppose.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Not really a lie. Apparently the vaccine takes longer to grow than anticipated by manufacturers.

You're conflating the two issues. The production of the vaccine (by manufacturers) is distinct from the governments' messages about the vaccination program and whether getting vaccinated is a civic imperative or a just needless distraction from important issues like eating too much candy.

The manufacturers are apparently unable to forecast their own production processes within an order of magnitude. This is disappointing, and would be suspicious if I wasn't such a firm believer in the honesty and pure motivations of Canada's research-based pharmaceutical companies.

The government is apparently unable to determine whether swine flu is an apocalyptic pandemic or a minor case of the sniffles. It just so happens that government views on the relative danger of swine flu are directly proportional to the availability of swine flu vaccine: more vaccine = swine flu will kill you; no vaccine = what's a swine flu?

 

[golodhendil]

I quoted articles from the Canadian Press, Bloomberg, and even a GSK news release, and now I suddenly have an anti-vaccination agenda (I have all my shots, fyi). Was it that one Flu Wiki link? It looked pretty shady at a glance. I'll bet that was it, wasn't it? It just kind of bugs me that I literally have a tab open to quackwatch.com at the same time I'm being accused of using talking points. At worst, I'm jumping to improbable conclusions. Also, you seem to be working-in the strawman argument that I'm against adjuvants in general, so I'd like to end that one right here. I'm clearly focusing on squalene.

Here's what I'm seeing:


Source: The Globe and Mail

This looks like the Harper government never got around to ordering the vaccine until some time in August or July, and now we're using a vaccine containing squalene adjuvants, and I don't know how else to represent the GSK leaflet, but "limited clinical trials" doesn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy inside. It seems completely unnecessary when there was a perfectly acceptable non-adjuvanted flu vaccine. Given the choices, I'd rather have thimerosal than squalene based on 5 minutes of Google.



Ironic that they told Canada to wait until November in a First Nations community which will no doubt be decimated yet again by European disease. The 1918 flu peaked in October. Vaccine takes two weeks to kick in, assuming it works. So way to miss the flu season and waste money, although it was good stimulus, I suppose.

Hence my earlier statement about news reports. Also, if you bothered to actually look up the examples and clinical data I cited (i.e., with more than "5 minutes of Google"; I can put up the academic paper citations, if need be), I am focussing on squalene adjuvants, so no strawmen there. FYI (something which I have mentioned multiple times but seems to keep flying over your head), both Europe and Japan have decided to go with squalene-adjuvanted H1N1 vaccines, and WHO has recommended nations to follow suit, because of years of European experience with the "perfectly acceptable" squalene-adjuvanted seasonal flu vaccine, and the fact that it is slightly more acceptable than the nonadjuvanted one due to its more prudent use of limited available viral antigen. I have no intention of defending or criticizing the political and administrative competence of various Canadian government agencies or political parties, but that should not be conflated with the soundness of the science.

I admit that calling you an (intentional) antivaxxer might be premature, but persistently spreading misinformation as you have, intentionally or not, is certainly no better than most antivaxxers. (The "talking points" refer to the fact that the misinformation you obtained from "5 minutes of Google" brought you to those very talking points which you are now spreading)

Also, the current flu is hardly a "European disease". Such a term is not even applicable to it, and if anything it is an "American disease" as it most likely first originated in North America.

 

[gristle]

This whole fear of the flu shot is rather silly. I've been getting flu the shot every year for a long time with no ill effects whatsoever (yeah, I know that's anedotal evidence).

Years ago I contracted a case of seasonal flu. I felt lousy, had a fever and got a horrible cough that stopped me from getting a full night of sleep. Then I contracted pneumonia and another secondary infection that my doctor suggested was due to the flu knocking my immune system out of whack. I had a annoying coughing fits for over a month that would leave me breathless.

It's worth pointing out that I was in good shape physically and suffering no health conditions. I lost a semester of school and did not gain full strength back for weeks. After that, I started to get the flu shot every year.

When this vaccination becomes available to the general population, I'm getting it.

 

[khris]

Now they're delaying the public vaccinations that were supposed start on Monday, for "2-3 weeks". What a joke this has become.

The vaccine takes 10 days to kick in. This is far, far too late. Most of us will get our immunity by getting H1N1, and not the vaccine.

All Ontario Health pamphlets that were handed out in the past couple of months said that the vaccine would be available in November to everyone.

The people who were supposed to get the vaccine early was people who are high risk. Unfortunately, people didn't listen to this, because the media is making this out to be the plague. So everyone is freaking out and getting these flu shots, even when they are perfectly healthy. This leaves the people who have compromised immune systems without a shot, which is unfortunate for them. If only the idiots had waited their turn, we would be okay.