smallspy
Senior Member
That's because he was hired by the Region to bring the system's revenue/cost split to 50/50. If you want to place blame, start with the people above him.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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- Thread starter ShonTron
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That's because he was hired by the Region to bring the system's revenue/cost split to 50/50. If you want to place blame, start with the people above him.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
doady
Senior Member
I think the difference between Brampton and York Region Transit is that Zum is a success while VIVA is a failure. I think VIVA is where these cuts really started for YRT. VIVA was a huge one-time and ongoing expense, and the expected ridership gains (for both VIVA and regular YRT service) never materialized.
Ridership on VIVA Orange and Green is so poor they had to cut off-peak service. That's millions of dollars worth of VIVA stations and buses unused now. Even Blue and Purple aren't so great.
That's why YRT's cost recovery ratio dropped from 50% in 2004 to 36% in 2012, despite all the service cuts and fare hikes (highest fares in the GTA). Brampton Transit's cost recovery seems to be holding steady at 46%.
taal
Senior Member
Was Viva a failure ? What were the original ridership projections.
From very informal riding I'd say blue seems to be a success ! While purple and pink are a failure by far.
doady
Senior Member
I remember YRT ridership for 2006 was originally forecast at 19.1 million, and eventually budgeted for 18.8 million. But even the system failed to live up to even the revised ridership forecasts, which you can find here.
20.09 million and 22.45 million forecast for 2007 and 2008, respectively. YRT's actual ridership was only 18.23 million and 18.86 million, respectively, in those years. 2009 and 2010 actual ridership were even further from the projections, but there was a recession so I will cut them some slack.
Yes, VIVA Blue is a successful route by YRT standards, but the ridership is still lower than 19 Hurontario, and a lot of that ridership comes from the Yonge 'C' and Newmarket 'B'. I think VIVA Blue is a failure in terms of shifting mass amounts of people to transit in York Region, which was the whole point of VIVA, no?
20.09 million and 22.45 million forecast for 2007 and 2008, respectively. YRT's actual ridership was only 18.23 million and 18.86 million, respectively, in those years. 2009 and 2010 actual ridership were even further from the projections, but there was a recession so I will cut them some slack.
Yes, VIVA Blue is a successful route by YRT standards, but the ridership is still lower than 19 Hurontario, and a lot of that ridership comes from the Yonge 'C' and Newmarket 'B'. I think VIVA Blue is a failure in terms of shifting mass amounts of people to transit in York Region, which was the whole point of VIVA, no?
aleesia
Active Member
Normally, I don't care that much about what they're planning outside of Peel Region, but I was curious, and I wasn't prepared to handle what I saw... I was extremely surprised about what's going on to my neighbours to the east!!!
First of all, about Viva Orange...
What a joke.
Viva Orange going down to 42 minutes??? A BRT route running every 42 minutes!!?!?!? I have always thought Mississauga provides the worst express service among the 905. But wow, seeing this, I think I'm just seeing Blue and Purple. That's even less frequent than 110 between UTM and Clarkson running every 34 minutes... but the section north of UTM is double the frequency. And 109's counter-peak running every 38 minutes... which will boost to 17 minutes come Monday.
Also, Viva Orange stopping at Pine Valley? What about those people connecting from Martin Grove and Islington? I think they should just contract out the services to Brampton Transit. Apparently, Even with the 501/501A split during weekends, the 501, running every 30 minutes, is still more frequent than the proposed Viva Orange.
The Viva map? Let's see.
Viva Orange:
- The current form of Viva Orange should be contracted out to Brampton Transit to handle people going to the Spadina Line.
- If they are pondering the Viva Orange to mirror the 77 all the way to Finch, then do the diversion RIGHT NOW! Also, it should be extended to The Gore Road temporarily until they build a permanent terminal. Once the Yonge North Subway Extension opens, they can simply cut this route. That handles the Yonge Line.
- The new Orange should be running every 15 minutes peak, 20 minutes midday and early evening, 30 minutes late evening and weekends. Basically mirroring 501's frequency. So Highway 7 west of VMC will have buses every 7.5 minutes peak, 10 minutes midday and early evening, 15 minutes weekends and late evenings.
Viva Purple:
- retain its current form before the subway opening.
- after the subway opening, it should go between Markham-Stouffville to Vaughan Metropolitan Centre, not end at Richmond Hill.
- Viva Purple can leave Unionville entirely and serve as a bypass to a 7-day Viva Pink, just like what 103 and 502 do around Square One along Hurontario.
Viva Pink:
- If they retain this as rush hour-only service, I think Purple should still serve Unionville during off-peak and weekends. Otherwise, let it run 7 days a week and Purple takes the role of the bypass.
Viva Green:
- A route through the industrial area seems to not work in Markham. Students from Seneca might complain, but I think the 25 itself does not divert to serve the college, so why should Viva Green if it were to be diverted to run along Leslie...
- Worried about the performance of this route, may end up being a 5-day route only... Or 6-day at most. Or considering the fate of the current Viva Green, may end up with the same service span. Maybe boost 90's Sunday service to rack up ridership?
- The terminus at York General Hospital is just fine with me.
Viva Yellow:
- What's the purpose of serving the Eagle Vivastation if both Blue and Yellow can meet at Newmarket Terminal? Should the Yellow loop there instead of wasting time serving Eagle? After all, Blue is frequent enough.
- Also worried about the Sunday performance of this route, better boost the local counterpart's (apparently 55) Sunday service first, then I'll accept 7-day service.
Viva Silver:
- Will be very busy come summertime and spring/fall weekends! And maybe through the fall for the Christmas shopping season!
- Other than that, oh well... let's see!
- The terminus at Richmond Hill GO Station is reasonable, if and only if the all-day train service comes...
Viva Blue:
- Viva Viva Blue! (Long live Viva Blue!) Deservingly so because it seems to be successful.
First of all, about Viva Orange...
What a joke.
Viva Orange going down to 42 minutes??? A BRT route running every 42 minutes!!?!?!? I have always thought Mississauga provides the worst express service among the 905. But wow, seeing this, I think I'm just seeing Blue and Purple. That's even less frequent than 110 between UTM and Clarkson running every 34 minutes... but the section north of UTM is double the frequency. And 109's counter-peak running every 38 minutes... which will boost to 17 minutes come Monday.
Also, Viva Orange stopping at Pine Valley? What about those people connecting from Martin Grove and Islington? I think they should just contract out the services to Brampton Transit. Apparently, Even with the 501/501A split during weekends, the 501, running every 30 minutes, is still more frequent than the proposed Viva Orange.
The Viva map? Let's see.
Viva Orange:
- The current form of Viva Orange should be contracted out to Brampton Transit to handle people going to the Spadina Line.
- If they are pondering the Viva Orange to mirror the 77 all the way to Finch, then do the diversion RIGHT NOW! Also, it should be extended to The Gore Road temporarily until they build a permanent terminal. Once the Yonge North Subway Extension opens, they can simply cut this route. That handles the Yonge Line.
- The new Orange should be running every 15 minutes peak, 20 minutes midday and early evening, 30 minutes late evening and weekends. Basically mirroring 501's frequency. So Highway 7 west of VMC will have buses every 7.5 minutes peak, 10 minutes midday and early evening, 15 minutes weekends and late evenings.
Viva Purple:
- retain its current form before the subway opening.
- after the subway opening, it should go between Markham-Stouffville to Vaughan Metropolitan Centre, not end at Richmond Hill.
- Viva Purple can leave Unionville entirely and serve as a bypass to a 7-day Viva Pink, just like what 103 and 502 do around Square One along Hurontario.
Viva Pink:
- If they retain this as rush hour-only service, I think Purple should still serve Unionville during off-peak and weekends. Otherwise, let it run 7 days a week and Purple takes the role of the bypass.
Viva Green:
- A route through the industrial area seems to not work in Markham. Students from Seneca might complain, but I think the 25 itself does not divert to serve the college, so why should Viva Green if it were to be diverted to run along Leslie...
- Worried about the performance of this route, may end up being a 5-day route only... Or 6-day at most. Or considering the fate of the current Viva Green, may end up with the same service span. Maybe boost 90's Sunday service to rack up ridership?
- The terminus at York General Hospital is just fine with me.
Viva Yellow:
- What's the purpose of serving the Eagle Vivastation if both Blue and Yellow can meet at Newmarket Terminal? Should the Yellow loop there instead of wasting time serving Eagle? After all, Blue is frequent enough.
- Also worried about the Sunday performance of this route, better boost the local counterpart's (apparently 55) Sunday service first, then I'll accept 7-day service.
Viva Silver:
- Will be very busy come summertime and spring/fall weekends! And maybe through the fall for the Christmas shopping season!
- Other than that, oh well... let's see!
- The terminus at Richmond Hill GO Station is reasonable, if and only if the all-day train service comes...
Viva Blue:
- Viva Viva Blue! (Long live Viva Blue!) Deservingly so because it seems to be successful.
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Seeing all of these service cuts, it just makes me more and more convinced that all transit in the GTHA should just be under Metrolinx. With greater revenue generation powers at their disposal, they can break the cycle of service cuts leading to lower ridership, leading to more service cuts, leading to lower ridership.
Subsidize it more if you have to, but service levels need to at least be at a point where during rush hour, and even at certain times outside of rush hour, riders don't need to consult a schedule to figure out when to show up at the BRT station.
With Metrolinx able to provide greater subsidies, hopefully it will create a positive feedback loop, where higher service levels leads to increased ridership, which in turn would lower the amount of subsidization required. The inverse of this loop is proving to be true (cuts leading to lower ridership), so hopefully that loop can be proven true as well.
Subsidize it more if you have to, but service levels need to at least be at a point where during rush hour, and even at certain times outside of rush hour, riders don't need to consult a schedule to figure out when to show up at the BRT station.
With Metrolinx able to provide greater subsidies, hopefully it will create a positive feedback loop, where higher service levels leads to increased ridership, which in turn would lower the amount of subsidization required. The inverse of this loop is proving to be true (cuts leading to lower ridership), so hopefully that loop can be proven true as well.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Why continue killing VIVA orange and allowing 77 to carry on relatively unchanged. The two routes duplicate each other for much of their routes. 77 has already be knocked back to approx 45 mins (? I'm not sure haven't checked 77's schedule in a while), why not just kill the route entirely. Or as someone suggested last year run it as a "local" route taking a detour, for example, at Islington to run through downtown woodbridge on woodbridge ave.
doady
Senior Member
Note that the service cuts we are discussing are just part of the 2014 Annual Service Plan. The 2013 Annual Service Plan also calls for lots of cuts across the board - approximately a 3% reduction in service for the system overall, in terms of annual service hours - which will be implemented later this year.
http://www.yrt.ca/en/aboutus/resources/2013_ASP_4.11_VivaNext.pdf
http://www.yrt.ca/en/aboutus/resources/2013_ASP_4.11_VivaNext.pdf
xtremesniper
Active Member
I think Viva was one of the rare moments of "Let's spend money on some long term planning" and I'm thankful for it. We need more of this kind of "If we build it, they will come" mentality. It's the same mentality that got us the subway track to be build on the Bloor Viaduct even before they had a subway line there.
I think Viva will pay off in the end, but for now it's tough because of service cuts and lack of funding. Keep on pressing and the future generations just might not hate us forever.
I think Viva will pay off in the end, but for now it's tough because of service cuts and lack of funding. Keep on pressing and the future generations just might not hate us forever.
TOareaFan
Superstar
This is the key to any successful transit growth. Not that long ago I decided to experiment with a new commute pattern that was kinda forced on me (we had guests from overseas staying with us so I wanted to leave them my car to use to explore while I was at work). I wanted to see how hard it is to get to and from work without my car (prior to this I was, either, driving to work or driving to GO). I am about a 4 minute walk from a stop on BT's #7......so it would be 7 to Queen then Zum to GO and train to Union. The frequency on the 7 combined with the frequency on 501/1 got me (very quickly) to the point that I stopped using the trip planner to pick the perfect time to leave the house because even if i got to the stop just as a bus left, I knew there would be another one coming along soon.
Over the 3 weeks of being "forced" to do this commute I became super impressed by the commute times. They ranged from 1 hour and 15 to 1 hour and 25 minutes (there were a few bad weather days) to Union and from a very impressive 59 minutes to 1 hour 20 (again bad weather) on the trip home from Union (those times include the walk to/from the #7 bus).
The point is that those frequencies and reliabilities compare very favourably with just about any other commute time I have a choice with (on a good day - not including March break - my door to door drive is 1 hour 10 minutes and it ranges up from there). The result was my new pattern of driving to work on Mondays (I do ocassionally need my car at work for work) and leaving it in my parking spot until my drive home on Friday (on weekends it is handy to have the two cars around the house).
Had BT been reducing frequencies rather than increasing (as has been their pattern of late) their hope of converting car trips to all-transit trips is greatly reduced.
I think a lot of the willingness to take transit comes from the convenience of the last (or first, depending on the direction) ~2km of trip. This is where the YRT/Viva combo fails, because unless you live within easy walking distance of a Viva corridor, the connecting routes to get you TO that corridor aren't very good. It doesn't do many people very good if the Viva route is running every 5 mins, but the connecting route is running every 30.
Your experience is quite typical. Your immediate assumption was that getting to the GO station by transit was going to be painful, because unless you hit the connecting routes bang on, it was going to take your forever to get there. Thankfully BT had good local routes in your area, so that perception was altered.
I think a lot of people in YR hear talks of service cuts to YRT, and that perception of "oh the connecting buses are terrible" only gets reinforced. A takeover by Metrolinx and a corresponding boost in frequencies would hopefully help reverse that perception.
Don't get me wrong, the Rapidways are a good start, but you need the supporting connecting routes for it as well. Either that, or start building Park N Ride lots at key locations, like Ottawa's suburban Transitway stations have. It's not ideal because it's not an all-transit trip, but at least you're getting the long-haul trips off the road.
doady
Senior Member
The thing is, a Viva route should have high ridership by itself and not be completely reliant on connections to other routes. Both route 1 Queen and 7 Kennedy are strong routes in their own right, and the same cannot be said of Viva Orange and Green, let alone the routes connecting to them.
Well, they built it, but now they are destroying it. Cutting service (including VIVA service) is not building something.
Spending money on "long term plans" is good, if it is a good plan. Viva isn't.
Like, they built a transitway along Enterprise Blvd, and now they want to take VIVA Purple buses off the transitway? I just think it's getting ridiculous now.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
That's what I have always said. The rapidways are the spine of the network and the rest of the YRT network connect in some way to the spine. YRT though likes to plan a bit to much with destinations in mind, sending a local route to York U (granted most if not all riders are going there) reduces the amount of service that the local area receives (time spent getting to York U is time not spent in the region serving riders) and undercuts the VIVA services that also serve that destination (York). It was not a popular opinion when I raised it a few yrs ago once VIVA launched but I would have liked to see YRT take most, if not all, of their local routes away from York U and in turn provide easy connections/transfers to the VIVA while improving local service.
Take for example the 10 York U/Woodbridge route (which is already a merge of old routes 10 and 11) rather than spending all that time south of 7 they could have simply had made the route (or routes) connect to the VIVA route.
Electrify
Senior Member
They are going to do that once the subway is complete. All Viva and GO routes will connect to the subway, where people will transfer on to to get to York.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Why not now? Why not 5, or so, years ago when VIVA service debuted? VIVA was to be the region's central spine, not just in 2016 when the subway is built, not just now when we are upgrading from BRT lite to exclusive ROW's, but right from the start. So why once VIVA service started did they not say "ok now that we have our brand new Rapid Transit Routes running to York U most local routes will not terminate at York U instead they will terminate somewhere within York Region. Local routes will have a connection with a VIVA line which will take you to York U if that is your destination".