[11th]

Part of me hopes that the Sheppard subway is eventually extended in both directions. Yes, it wasn't the best choice of technology, however, it is still an extremely valuable asset for the system. I rode it yesterday at around 3:30 and there were hundreds of people using it, standing room only at Sheppard Yonge. The line poorly integrates surface transit at every station except Don Mills, which saddens me, but explains its lack of ridership everywhere except there. If they eventually extend the line, it needs to be built with surface transit connections in mind, and the network that surrounds it needs to be seriously considered. I'm talking about creating new bus routes to serve surrounding neighbourhoods like they do along the Bloor and Danforth lines. What I don't understand is why Lawrence isn't getting an LRT. The corridor is due for much growth and has solid ridership, but it along with steeles, York Mills/Wilson, and st clair east are always ignored.

The Sheppard corridor probably had one of the highest ridership, but those did not come from points west of Don Mills. That's why the 85 express branches used to run express from Yonge to Victoria Park.

 

[Hopkins123]

Yes. Vanity project, that:

https://twitter.com/domlee2010/status/958352394605285377

You know, I bet you a good chunk of those getting stuck there is from the east and west end of the city.

AoD

Not to undermine what you're saying but there are other solutions short of building a brand new from scratch money-sucking subway line. There has been talk of expanding capacity at Bloor-Yonge Station through the addition of a new center platform, which is would cost $1.117 billion vs. $14 billion for DRL Long (plus another $6 billion to get the DRL over to Dundas West/Keele). Source: https://stevemunro.ca/2017/07/13/ttc-board-discovers-cost-of-bloor-danforth-subway-renovation/

Then there's GO RER/SmartTrack to consider.

It's cringeworthy that talk of extending the existing subway lines further into the suburbs has devolved into a bad thought/suggestion when not everyone can afford to live downtown and may not dire to even do so but need viable ways to get there for work/school and to other parts of the city. Just tonight my co-worker and I were working near Kipling Stn and he lives in Malvern and he had to get a friend to drive him home because the thought of even taking the SRT and a bus after the hour-long journey to Kennedy Stn was unimaginable for him. This is the reality real hardworking people are facing these days. A DRL would not have made his commute any easier or more feasible.

 

[MisterF]

I'm trying to sort out what exactly your point is, Hopkins. The fact that the DRL wouldn't have helped your coworker in that specific circumstance hardly seems relevant to the merits of the line. No one transit line can be all things to all people. Trips for those kinds of distances are what RER is for.

The cost of upgrading Bloor-Yonge compared to the full DRL is a false equivalency. The former wouldn't have even close to the benefits of the latter.

Building all the other extensions for the same cost as the DRL would just make crowding worse at the core of the system, where it's already the most crowded. That's not dismissing the needs of people who live on the outskirts of the city, that's just acknowledging reality. Besides, the DRL will benefit the suburbs and downtown alike.

Subway expansion has prioritized the outskirts of for 50 years. It's time to build where the demand is greatest.

 

[JSF-1]

Fact is no amount of suburban expansion is going to make the ridership that already exists on the YUS disappear, and will in fact make it worse. Its cringe worthy that the talk of building a subway into the downtown core has devolved into bad thought/suggestion when not everyone can get down there quickly and efficiently. Fact most of the YUS's problems begin north of Bloor-Yonge and the bottleneck is just the icing on the cake. Fact most of the riders clogging up the YUS are 905'ers commuting into the core. Fact, denser area's require more public transit investment. It is amazing this city can't wrap its head around this simple concept. Maybe if the suburbs had been planned to not be suburbs but instead to be cities we wouldn't have this problem. Maybe if the suburbs were "Transit Cities" and not "Automotive Cities" this wouldn't be a problem but that ship sailed decades ago. There is only one destination in the GTA, there is only one downtown core in the GTA and everyone and there mother commutes into it, out of it, and through it every day of the week. The system that is in place can no longer handle what is being asked of it so relief is needed. The fact is no amount of expansion into the suburbs will change the fact that the system cannot carry anymore people and half-assing it does not fix the problem, but instead delays it. The city needs to stop half-assing it on transit when the DRL is the most important piece of Subway infrastructure Toronto will ever build and benefits everyone equally regardless of whether they from the 416 or the 905.

 

[Neutrino]

@Hopkins123 That's why we need a network - subway, LRT, BRT so that as many parts of the city have access to decent/semi decent transit. BRT in particular can fill many gaps in the suburbs. Speaking of GO RER, your co-worker's commute may become easier in the future: 20 minutes Kipling to Union on Milton RER, 25 minutes Union to Agincourt on Stoufville RER and then 15 minutes from Agincourt to Morningside on Sheppard East LRT. But I sympathize - that's a hellish commute, even if most of it is on the subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I would argue that with Yonge North, Sheppard east and west will be needed that much more. Some north York commuters will most definitely have jobs around Pape Gerrard, or Science Centre locations, as well as in Scarborough and along the university line, or will attend York University. If there are no easy connections to any of those locations, they will be funnelled through the Yonge Line. The sheppard line will be necessary then, but density needs to improve, and building now will prevent the issues we are having now.

Solve the Yonge line with Relief line long, fix the RT/SSE, then connect all the major lines with the sheppard line.

Agreed again. Eventually, I would like to see the busiest stations be Yonge Eglinton, Science Center and Pape.

DRL will always be perceived by many as a nice-to-have vanity project that'll suck up limited funds that otherwise could go towards fully grade-separating Eglinton Crosstown, extending both sides of the Bloor-Danforth and completing the Sheppard Line.

Yes. Vanity project, that:

https://twitter.com/domlee2010/status/958352394605285377

You know, I bet you a good chunk of those getting stuck there is from the east and west end of the city.

AoD

It's the TTC that dragged their feet the DRL in the first place. If people have the erroneous perception that the DRL is a vanity project, then the TTC should look in the mirror, they only have themselves to blame.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Agreed again. Eventually, I would like to see the busiest statiosn be Yonge Eglinton, Science Center and Pape.

It's just Eglinton

It's the TTC that dragged their feet the DRL in the first place. If people have the erroneous perception that the DRL is a vanity project, then the TTC should look in the mirror, they only have themselves to blame.

Maybe if the TTC released sample videos from the platforms of all the stations during rush hour, then people would be able to see the crowding differences and be able to see how bad the crowding is and the Relief Line is 100% necessary.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It's the TTC that dragged their feet the DRL in the first place. If people have the erroneous perception that the DRL is a vanity project, then the TTC should look in the mirror, they only have themselves to blame.

And TTC just operate on their own, absent political direction on transit expansions for the past oh, half a century, right? It is funny how the most essential transit project is being seen as "vanity" while we are building subway extensions that barely warrant a busway for the last little while. Is it any wonder transit is in the f**k*d up state that it is.

Maybe if the TTC released sample videos from the platforms of all the stations during rush hour, then people would be able to see the crowding differences and be able to see how bad the crowding is and the Relief Line is 100% necessary.

A few deaths would help.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

And TTC just operate on their own, absent political direction on transit expansions for the past oh, half a century, right? It is funny how the most essential transit project is being seen as "vanity" while we are building subway extensions that barely warrant a busway for the last little while. Is it any wonder transit is in the f**k*d up state that it is.



A few deaths would help.

AoD

What we talk about, what the planners talk about, what the voters want, and what politicians do are all different things, sadly.

It's just Eglinton

Maybe if the TTC released sample videos from the platforms of all the stations during rush hour, then people would be able to see the crowding differences and be able to see how bad the crowding is and the Relief Line is 100% necessary.

Thank for the correction.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What we talk about, what the planners talk about, what the voters want, and what politicians do are all different things, sadly.

People may say different things - but saturation of Line 1 speaks for itself - you know, "lived experience" at its' best.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

People may say different things - but saturation of Line 1 speaks for itself - you know, "lived experience" at its' best.

AoD

That I agree with.

 

[syn]

Not to undermine what you're saying but there are other solutions short of building a brand new from scratch money-sucking subway line. There has been talk of expanding capacity at Bloor-Yonge Station through the addition of a new center platform, which is would cost $1.117 billion vs. $14 billion for DRL Long (plus another $6 billion to get the DRL over to Dundas West/Keele). Source: https://stevemunro.ca/2017/07/13/ttc-board-discovers-cost-of-bloor-danforth-subway-renovation/

Funny you don't apply that line of thought to the SSE, which is the definition of a money-sucking subway line.

@MisterF is right - it's time to build subways where there's actual (and desperately needed) demand for them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Funny you don't apply that line of thought to the SSE, which is the definition of a money-sucking subway line.

@MisterF is right - it's time to build subways where there's actual (and desperately needed) demand for them.

It's not him, it's the voters, politicians and TTC planners. Everyone else with sense knows DRL long needs to happen and frankly be extended to mount dennis.

 

[Hopkins123]

Funny you don't apply that line of thought to the SSE, which is the definition of a money-sucking subway line.

@MisterF is right - it's time to build subways where there's actual (and desperately needed) demand for them.

In its current one stop iteration, yes, it's wasteful. But that's not an argument against more rapid transit for Scarborough in general. Grade separated lines really should extend out to Morningside Avenue if we are being equitable with coverage.

My point in regards to the DRL - to do it right, it will need to absorb all available transit funding. Which will leave the suburbs barren and starved for rapid transit for another generation or so. I want to see a DRL in my lifetime too but not at the expense of say a fully grade-separated Crosstown or adding 10 stops to the Sheppard Line so people north of the 401 have an adequate means of getting around.

Like @denfromoakvillemilton is saying, people will see little value in the DRL if it doesn't directly affect them. The city is spread out more horizontally than vertically too.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I don't think it is anyone's intent to halt all the other proposed projects to have DRL long completed in one blow. A mere extension of the proposed phase to Eglinton will probably be sufficient to generate enough momentum to finish that particular project over time.

Let's put it another way - Scarborough isn't wanting the SSE extension just so that they can get to Kipling easier.

AoD