[syn]

In its current one stop iteration, yes, it's wasteful. But that's not an argument against more rapid transit for Scarborough in general. Grade separated lines really should extend out to Morningside Avenue if we are being equitable with coverage.

My point in regards to the DRL - to do it right, it will need to absorb all available transit funding. Which will leave the suburbs barren and starved for rapid transit for another generation or so. I want to see a DRL in my lifetime too but not at the expense of say a fully grade-separated Crosstown or adding 10 stops to the Sheppard Line so people north of the 401 have an adequate means of getting around.

Like @denfromoakvillemilton is saying, people will see little value in the DRL if it doesn't directly affect them. The city is spread out more horizontally than vertically too.

It is very possible to build rapid transit in the suburbs without building subways. The fact of the matter is we've spent two to three generations building subways in the suburbs and the results are quite clear. It's time to focus on actual need.

The DRL will transform the subway system for everyone, and as Alvin has pointed out, it doesn't have to be done in one shot. The first phase should make a world of difference to transit users.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The Relief Line North will connect to some of Canada’s densest communites at Flemingdon and Throncliffe Park, it will connect to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT (and likely EELRT as well), it will connect to bus routes at Larwrence, York Mills, Sheppard and Finch, and regional bus routes as well. A very substantial portion of Toronto’s busiest routes will intersect this line. Connectivity is the least of the problems with then DRL NORTH.

As I said before, north of Eglinton. It will not connect to the finch bus as far as planning is concerned so far. My argument is that you need strong crosstown rapid transit or higher order transit routes along the path of DRL north to make it worthwhile for Yonge line commuters to use it. Right now it can take upwards of 20 minutes on a bus during the off-peak times to travel from Yonge St to Don Mills. Most commuters closer to Yonge (where all the density is) will not accept that as an alternative, and with the SSE coming, many people will choose that line over the Don Mills line north of Eglinton and east of Victoria Park. My argument is that there needs to be a greater network of surface routes and other forms of rapid transit along the Don Mills line north of Eglinton because there will be so few stations and little density when it opens.

It is very possible to build rapid transit in the suburbs without building subways. The fact of the matter is we've spent two to three generations building subways in the suburbs and the results are quite clear. It's time to focus on actual need.

The DRL will transform the subway system for everyone, and as Alvin has pointed out, it doesn't have to be done in one shot. The first phase should make a world of difference to transit users.

DRL north is technically in the suburbs. Should we revert to the Don Mills LRT? I think not. Should the subway west of Old Mill and East of Main St Station have been built? Absolutely. It may have not been full when it opened, but they most certainly serve hundreds of thousands of commuters daily. The demand along the Yonge Line and crowded Bloor, Danforth, and university lines would not be there had these subways not been built. No one here is denying that the DRL long needs to be built. It should have been built before the extension to Vaughan, we get it, we all agree. However, it is this mindset against planning for the future that got us into this transit mess we are in now, and will only continue unless we build for the future, and I'm not talking 20 years into the future, but 60 years into the future.

I am not against LRT, or alternate technology in the suburbs, and I am not for sheppard or scarborough subways before DRL long is completed. I just don't believe the ttc or the city is doing enough to plan for the future. We have a huge fare recovery ratio. It may seem impressive, but it shows that we're stingy and unable to provide a buffer of service to make commuting enjoyable. LRT lines should be built, but along corridors that won't see much growth and have significant ridership. I'm looking at York Mills, Wilson, Jane, Finch, Ellesmere, Lawrence, Even Eglinton East and West. Growth is expected in significant amounts along Eglinton, Sheppard, Don Mills, Dufferin, and the Portlands. Those corridors are perfect for subway building. They may not be full in 5 or even 15 years, but ridership will grow and they will be seen as worthwhile investments. I sent a video of the sheppard subway outside of rush hour. It was standing room only. I don't know about you, but for a stubway, that's incredible. Dozens of cities would beg for that kind of ridership. It's not good transit planning to build lines that will be at or near capacity when they open, it's actually a huge waste of resources because an inadequate system is built.

 

[Leo_Chan]

As I said before, north of Eglinton. It will not connect to the finch bus as far as planning is concerned so far. My argument is that you need strong crosstown rapid transit or higher order transit routes along the path of DRL north to make it worthwhile for Yonge line commuters to use it. Right now it can take upwards of 20 minutes on a bus during the off-peak times to travel from Yonge St to Don Mills. Most commuters closer to Yonge (where all the density is) will not accept that as an alternative, and with the SSE coming, many people will choose that line over the Don Mills line north of Eglinton and east of Victoria Park. My argument is that there needs to be a greater network of surface routes and other forms of rapid transit along the Don Mills line north of Eglinton because there will be so few stations and little density when it opens.

So you want Don Mills Station to be like a new Finch Station? That makes sense, as it kind of already is, but not big still enough.

DRL north is technically in the suburbs. Should we revert to the Don Mills LRT? I think not. Should the subway west of Old Mill and East of Main St Station have been built? Absolutely. It may have not been full when it opened, but they most certainly serve hundreds of thousands of commuters daily. The demand along the Yonge Line and crowded Bloor, Danforth, and university lines would not be there had these subways not been built. No one here is denying that the DRL long needs to be built. It should have been built before the extension to Vaughan, we get it, we all agree. However, it is this mindset against planning for the future that got us into this transit mess we are in now, and will only continue unless we build for the future, and I'm not talking 20 years into the future, but 60 years into the future.

Even before the extension to York University (if the province funded it without asking for it go further)?

 

[mdrejhon]

I would argue that with Yonge North, Sheppard east and west will be needed that much more. Some north York commuters will most definitely have jobs around Pape Gerrard, or Science Centre locations, as well as in Scarborough and along the university line, or will attend York University. If there are no easy connections to any of those locations, they will be funnelled through the Yonge Line. The sheppard line will be necessary then, but density needs to improve, and building now will prevent the issues we are having now.

Solve the Yonge line with Relief line long, fix the RT/SSE, then connect all the major lines with the sheppard line.

If there's no stopping the Scarborough subway, then I'm certainly for connecting Sheppard Subway to Line 2 with a subway connection (only eventually -- in a 30-year masterplan).

The big sideways U. The benefits would (eventually) redeem the waste of the $3bn Scarborough Stop. If built, it was a very costly price to satisfy Scarborough to prevent Scarborough from interfering with the rest of GTHA's transit priorities (to prevent Transit City style politics).

I would hope nobody tries to accelerate the sideways U though, as we need the funds for DRL first. And GO RER. And a lot of LRTs. Priorities first. Hell, build the Sheppard East LRT first, and build the sideways U connection later this century (maybe even under a slightly different alignement too).

Far future stuff, of course.

 

[Streety McCarface]

So you want Don Mills Station to be like a new Finch Station? That makes sense, as it kind of already is, but not big still enough.


Even before the extension to York University (if the province funded it without asking for it go further)?

It would have 2 subway lines, pretty much a GO line, dozens of bus routes, YRT VIVA, and density. I don't see why not. Although, Pioneer Village is trying to be the new finch and failing quite a bit, but it needs time.

It's probably better to invest in crowding issues. With York University, I'm conflicted because it really deserves a subway connection, but people could be getting killed at Yonge and Bloor, and eventually Yonge and Eglinton.

 

[kEiThZ]

Here's a simple question. How many of you would vote PC if Doug Ford promised to make the DRL a priority and start construction in this first term?

I just don't see any ridings the PCs stand to gain if they spend $6 billion (probably more) on the DRL. If they build anything that expensive, it'll be the RER (or whatever version of it).

The downside to be safe territory is that no party is really going to cater to your needs. The Liberals can take the 416 for granted. And the PCs know that that the 905 matters more. Transit spending priorities for both parties will be calculated accordingly.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Here's a simple question. How many of you would vote PC if Rob Ford promised to make the DRL a priority and start construction in this first term?

I just don't see any ridings the PCs stand to gain if they spend $6 billion (probably more) on the DRL. If they build anything that expensive, it'll be the RER (or whatever version of it).

The downside to be safe territory is that no party is really going to cater to your needs. The Liberals can take the 416 for granted. And the PCs know that that the 905 matters more. Transit spending priorities for both parties will be calculated accordingly.

Postpone the Scarborough Subway Extension, or Relief Line and SSE at the same time?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Postpone the Scarborough Subway Extension, or Relief Line and SSE at the same time?

That won't really be necessary. Two tunnelling projects were occurring recently: the TYSSE and Eglinton Crosstown. That shifting over to the SSE and DRL seems fair.

 

[crs1026]

Here's a simple question. How many of you would vote PC if Rob Ford promised to make the DRL a priority and start construction in this first term?

I just don't see any ridings the PCs stand to gain if they spend $6 billion (probably more) on the DRL. If they build anything that expensive, it'll be the RER (or whatever version of it).

The downside to be safe territory is that no party is really going to cater to your needs. The Liberals can take the 416 for granted. And the PCs know that that the 905 matters more. Transit spending priorities for both parties will be calculated accordingly.

Ford has promised to simplify his campaign to a "top 5" list.

If transit isn't on the top 5 (as I suspect it won't, he is talking up cannabis, sex education, and government spending.... only two spaces left) then I will assume the worst. He's just not interested in the file.

Wynne (with Trudeau's help) has thrown down the gauntlet with this week's funding announcement. That pretty much sets the stage - now Doug needs to be asked if he will honour it. There are enough transit-savvy journalists on his trail that the question will be asked eventually.

Would the DRL on its own be enough to win my vote? No, I would want to hear his vision for RER also. But DRL plus commitment to even an RER Lite might do the trick.

- Paul

 

[ssiguy2]

Ford will NOT allow that much federal largess pass thru his fingers especially when he could use it on RER which helps the 905 commuters just as much as it does 416. This is why RER stands for "Regional" rail............it's a connecting system that all areas of the GTA will benefit from. If anything I think Ford would double down on RER and try to bring the entire system up to true grade separated subway/Metro standard. By cancelling a couple of LRTs {which Ford is no fan of} and putting that money towards more track, pedestrian overpasses, stations, rail bridges, faster electrification, etc, he could say he is expanding the current system and bringing subways, subways, subways to the outer 416 and all of the 905.

It would also be a media and political success and people know what a subway/metro is while few {Metrolinx & Queen's Park included} have any real understanding of what GO/RER will look like or what exactly it is. This is one of the reasons why Wynne has reaped very little political points with more GO service and why ridership increases relative to the increase in service has been nothing short of dreadful.

Ford knowing that Tory will never allow a Yonge extension without a DRL may merge the DRL & RER so, for example, trains coming from Oshawa go to Union and those coming from Unionville go to Yonge/Queen via the downtown tunnel with standard catenary RER trains.

 

[timio]

Here's a simple question. How many of you would vote PC if Rob Ford promised to make the DRL a priority and start construction in this first term?

That'd be a pretty hard promise to make.

 

[Sandpit]

That'd be a pretty hard promise to make.

His ghost lives inside his brother.

 

[ssiguy2]

There is a BIG difference between being a mayor and being a premier. Ford has to take into account all those 905 voters who he is relying on to get him to Queen's Park. Those people are commuters and there is no way in hell he will want to alienate them by stopping RER. This is why I think he will double down on RER to bring the system up to Metro/subway standards in terms of grade separation and frequency. Voters understand what a Metro is while Wynne's RER is still a rather nebulous concept which is why she is getting nearly no political points for it.

To most RER is just more GO service that they still won't be able to afford and Metrolinx and Wynne already have a basic RER service shy of electrification, the UPX. The UPX has not been well received as shown by it's poor ridership levels. It is still justly viewed by most Torontonians as a a luxury train built with public money for the wealthy who already have the most transport options and probably don't even pay for it as it's business service and hence paid for as a travelling expense and at a minimum a
tax write-off.

Metrolinx and Queen's Park had a real opportunity with the UPX to showcase what RER will mean to 416 & 905 voters and they blew it big time and now voters think RER will just be more of the same. Ford will take advantage of that and stop saying RER and start saying subways and that's something people and hence voters will rally around.

 

[kEiThZ]

That'd be a pretty hard promise to make.

Ha ha! That's what happens when I post late. Good catch. Edited

 

[kEiThZ]

Ford has to take into account all those 905 voters who he is relying on to get him to Queen's Park.

This. I don't get people who think transit will be completely ignored. Those 905 MPs have to have something to show in 2022. And it's he's going to make service cuts elsewhere, building transit is a good way out. Great for him too that the feds are also interested in pouring money into the 905.