[rbt]

The industry has been using the term "clean diesel" for about the past 10 or 15 years or so, basically since the EPA began to seriously ratchet up the emissions regulations on diesel power.

Yeah, there are specific numbers associated with each generation and "generation" seems to specifically indicate which sets of targets the engine meets.

It's sufficient to say that gen 2 engines are cleaner than gen 1 (or gen 0) and gen 4 engines which is where we are heading are cleaner than what we get today.

The problem is "clean diesel" is a boolean but actual progress is a gradient. Using the milestones on the gradient is better for marketing purposes.


I would say todays diesel is clean but not clean enough to stop engine R&D.

 

[nfitz]

Much as the marketing people like Mr. Ross love to throw out sayings such as "...saves money on maintenance..." on new equipment - which of course they do, as they are new - it's simply a meaningless sales term. All modern diesel engines are now "clean diesels".

What does saving money by fitting more people in less buses have to do with it being clean diesel or not?

 

[Fred.S]

I think most people saw the sarcasm in my clean vs dirty diesel comment. I saw it as a meaningless marketing term. Almost every new generation of gas/diesel vehicle is cleaner then the last.

I'm glad artics are coming back to the TTC. One thing I noticed in Europe was the number of small towns that used them, and how much nicer they were then our buses. They seemed to go all-out for passenger comfort.

I wish in conjunction with new articulated buses, we'd go and paint in some centre-of-the-road reserved bus lanes and transit islands, and move faster towards proof of payment and all-door boarding. You can do a lot with buses to greatly improve transit at a minimal cost. There's so many real-world examples. Now just waiting for double artics...

 

[drum118]

I think most people saw the sarcasm in my clean vs dirty diesel comment. I saw it as a meaningless marketing term. Almost every new generation of gas/diesel vehicle is cleaner then the last.

I'm glad artics are coming back to the TTC. One thing I noticed in Europe was the number of small towns that used them, and how much nicer they were then our buses. They seemed to go all-out for passenger comfort.

I wish in conjunction with new articulated buses, we'd go and paint in some centre-of-the-road reserved bus lanes and transit islands, and move faster towards proof of payment and all-door boarding. You can do a lot with buses to greatly improve transit at a minimal cost. There's so many real-world examples. Now just waiting for double artics...

I am in Hamburg now and all you see is either artic's or triple ones with a few 40's thrown in. Its a 50-50 splice between artic's and triples from what I have seen so far.

Never saw any artic's in Copenhagen, but a large number of 45' & DD buses.

Nice, Rome, Paris, Stockholm, Zurich, Geneva, Glasgow and Hamburg have artic's. Saw a few other small places along the trip that had them also as well 45'.

Zurich, Geneva and Hamburg so far have triple sections.

Very few places I have been to have all doors loading for buses or trams, but it has to happen.

There is a lot of places where bus only lanes are, but since there is no enforcement of them, cars use them. King has Streetcar lanes and never seen it being enforce.

 

[dowlingm]

The industry has been using the term "clean diesel" for about the past 10 or 15 years or so, basically since the EPA began to seriously ratchet up the emissions regulations on diesel power.

Much as the marketing people like Mr. Ross love to throw out sayings such as "...saves money on maintenance..." on new equipment - which of course they do, as they are new - it's simply a meaningless sales term. All modern diesel engines are now "clean diesels".

In fact even the "saves money" may not pan out as the emissions cleaning bits in the newer engines require more maintenance time than the older stuff which had conventional exhaust setups.

 

[Johnny Au]

TTC brings back the bendy bus

Read here: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1241919--ttc-brings-back-the-bendy-bus

Nova LFS Artic buses similar to this one will begin running on the TTC in fall 2013.

The bendy bus is back.
Nearly a decade after the TTC retired the last of its articulated buses, new models will be running on some of the city’s busiest routes starting in the fall of 2013.
The city councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission are expected in September to approve a $24.3-million contract to Nova Bus, a division of Volvo, in St. Eustache, Que.
That contract covers the cost of 27 buses to be delivered next year and gives the TTC the option to buy up to 153 of the 60-foot LFS Artic diesel buses, said a spokeswoman for Nova.
TTC spokesman Brad Ross said more buses will be delivered in 2014.
Nova supplies the same buses to New York City. Each one carries up to 112 people, compared with about 65 on a standard 40-foot TTC bus.
The idea of returning articulated buses to Toronto was a result of the TTC’s cost-crunching budget process last year. About the same time, it was looking at ways to accommodate more riders on Finch West while that busy route awaits the construction of an LRT.
Among the TTC’s fleet of 1,800 buses the Artics won’t dominate, but they will provide more reliability on routes such as Finch, Dufferin and Don Mills, where riders are frequently left standing at stops because their buses are too full, said TTC spokesman Brad Ross.
The trade-off will be less frequent service, he said.
“They will be used primarily in our busiest bus routes to deal with congestion. Three doors will allow for boarding and alighting,” Ross said.
The TTC is still figuring out how to speed up boarding and fare payment when so many people are getting on the longer buses, but that will probably emerge as the Presto fare payment cards are rolled out across the system by 2015.
The last generation of articulated TTC buses was officially retired in 2004 because of corrosion problems. Those Ikarus buses, partially built in Hungary, were assembled by Orion in Mississauga.
Mississauga and York Region use articulated buses and the TTC uses articulated streetcars on its long Queen St. route.
Longer buses will save the TTC money on drivers as well.
“Operating costs are all driven by service,” Ross said. One (articulated bus) equals about one and half buses, so you end up having to deploy fewer buses on a route. So you can achieve some operating savings that way.”

It would be interesting to have articulated buses back in Toronto.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Now that the TTC is getting artics, I wonder what the busiest North American transit operator that doesn't run articulated buses is? It would be waaaaaay down the list.

 

[smallspy]

In fact even the "saves money" may not pan out as the emissions cleaning bits in the newer engines require more maintenance time than the older stuff which had conventional exhaust setups.

To a degree. The onboard computers will tell maintenance staff when something needs to be done, or is almost ready to be done. In the "good old days", it was only fixed after it broke down, and possibly took other components out with it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ShonTron]

Now that the TTC is getting artics, I wonder what the busiest North American transit operator that doesn't run articulated buses is? It would be waaaaaay down the list.

In Canada, that would be Winnipeg Transit, and that might actually be the largest North American operator without artics. In Ontario (excluding GO), it would be Grand River Transit, then Durham Region, then Windsor.

 

[drum118]

I am in Berlin at this time and they have artic's and DD buses like GO along with the 40'. Got here a few hours ago.

I rode the Hamburg Van Hoole triple articulated buses and you get a good whipping at the rear on bad roads.

As for turning, the triple whip around the corner of single lane street like nothing. If they can turn that easy here, there is no reason they cannot do the same in Toronto.

The triple seat 62 with 118 standees including 2 spot for wheelchair. The standard articulated bus seats 42 with 109 standees and 1 wheelchair.

As it stands so far, Glasgow, London, Paris, Nice, Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Venice, Zurich, Geneva, Amsterdam, Hamburg and Berlin all have artic's.

Zurich, Geneva and Hamburg have triple artic's.

Rome, Zurich and Geneva have trolley artic's.

Most of the artic's are 4 doors with a few systems with 3 on standard artic's.

A number of systems are going to the GO style DD bus along with 45' in place of artic's and 40' buses.

The big thing I noticed to date for 90% of the systems that I have visited so far, is the seat capacity. Buses, trans and commuter rail have 20% or more less seating than we do.

Some systems have only the front section lowfloor with the rear section from the centre door being highfloor. They also have 100% full lowfloor buses also with the seat above the floor like the Van Hoole buses in York Region.

Route 5 & 6 in Hamburg run triple artic's every 5 minutes considering the outer section of the route is very low density.

Here are a few videos on a triple
[video=youtube;RGbqxobYcDM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGbqxobYcDM[/video]

Notice the fare collection by the driver.
[video=youtube;LpSFCdtwJtE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpSFCdtwJtE[/video]
[video=youtube;ar_8bonIBcU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar_8bonIBcU[/video]

 

[Nobina]

In the North American bus market, buses are typically only available in 40 ft (and shorter) and 60 ft (articulated) lengths. But there is no real intermediate bus length to deal with routes that require longer buses than 40 ft buses, but don't necessarily require 60 ft articulated buses.

Many European bus manufacturers - Volvo, MAN, Van Hool, and Scania for example, have solved this with a roughly 50 ft (15 metre) 3-axle city bus.

Volvo 8700 LE (Length: 14.73m/48.33ft, Width: 2.55m/8.37ft, Axles: 3, Seats: 52, Doors: 1+2+1).
Images courtesy of http://www.tampereenbussit.tk/

These buses have significantly improved seating (e.g. 52 seats vs. 41 seats in a 13m Vovlo 8700 LE bus) and standing capacity, and improved passenger flow thanks to three sets of doors, with strollers and wheelchairs boarding through the centre doors. I imagine these buses are cheaper to maintain than articulated buses.

In fact, Helsinki got rid of their entire articulated bus fleet, and opted to buy 15 metre 3-axle buses instead.

These buses would be perfect for Toronto!!

It surprises me that Novabus hasn't brought a 15 metre 3-axle bus to the North American market. After all, they are owned by Volvo.

 

[drum118]

In the North American bus market, buses are typically only available in 40 ft (and shorter) and 60 ft (articulated) lengths. But there is no real intermediate bus length to deal with routes that require longer buses than 40 ft buses, but don't necessarily require 60 ft articulated buses.

Many European bus manufacturers - Volvo, MAN, Van Hool, and Scania for example, have solved this with a roughly 50 ft (15 metre) 3-axle city bus.






Volvo 8700 LE (Length: 14.73m/48.33ft, Width: 2.55m/8.37ft, Axles: 3, Seats: 52, Doors: 1+2+1).
Images courtesy of http://www.tampereenbussit.tk/

These buses have significantly improved seating (e.g. 52 seats vs. 41 seats in a 13m Vovlo 8700 LE bus) and standing capacity, and improved passenger flow thanks to three sets of doors, with strollers and wheelchairs boarding through the centre doors. I imagine these buses are cheaper to maintain than articulated buses.

In fact, Helsinki got rid of their entire articulated bus fleet, and opted to buy 15 metre 3-axle buses instead.

These buses would be perfect for Toronto!!

It surprises me that Novabus hasn't brought a 15 metre 3-axle bus to the North American market. After all, they are owned by Volvo.

Watch your step on the 3 set of stairs at the rear, as it high. Only the front comply with ODA and ADA standards. Have photos of those steps, but way down the list to be fix.

I was seeing more GO DD style buses than these buses in Copenhagen and Stockholm. Same for a number of other systems along my rail travel.

 

[nfitz]

The 40' contract is now set to August 14th. Not articulated, but do you think it is likely that Nova will get it as well, or do you think the TTC will diversify their fleet and go with New Flyer?

No sign of this on the TTC site now. Did they decide to go with just Artics ... the the tender for regular buses was just a fall back if they couldn't get any qualified bids for artics?

Can't see why we'd want to buy any regular buses anyway. Presumably all the purchases should be artics until they get enough of those.

 

[ShonTron]

In the North American bus market, buses are typically only available in 40 ft (and shorter) and 60 ft (articulated) lengths. But there is no real intermediate bus length to deal with routes that require longer buses than 40 ft buses, but don't necessarily require 60 ft articulated buses.

Los Angeles has a large fleet of NABI 45-foot buses.

 

[smallspy]

No sign of this on the TTC site now. Did they decide to go with just Artics ... the the tender for regular buses was just a fall back if they couldn't get any qualified bids for artics?

Can't see why we'd want to buy any regular buses anyway. Presumably all the purchases should be artics until they get enough of those.

They are getting non-articulated buses because there are locations where articulated buses don't make sense. Not only that, but what if the artics turn out to be lemons?

As for where the tender has gone......that's a good question, and all of my usual contacts know nothing about it. I can't help but wonder if NFI and Nova balked at the amount of time requested/required between delivery windows.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.