[doady]

They are getting non-articulated buses because there are locations where articulated buses don't make sense.

Why wouldn't they make sense?

 

[smallspy]

Why wouldn't they make sense?

Would you use an artic on the 120 Calvington, or 74 Mount Pleasant?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[doady]

Would you use an artic on the 120 Calvington, or 74 Mount Pleasant?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Given the narrow streets and tight turns required along both of those routes, I would use the vehicle with the smallest turning radius - i.e. the articulated bus.

 

[nfitz]

They are getting non-articulated buses because there are locations where articulated buses don't make sense.

Surely they'd be better off instead of buying a replacement non-artic for 120 or 174, to buy an artic for a 25 that doesn't need replacing, and move the non-arctic to 120 or 174 ... for a few years at least.

Not only that, but what if the artics turn out to be lemons?

That's not the basis used for making large bus orders.

The only justification I'd see them proceeding with a non-artic order is if they need more buses earlier than the artic delivery date.

 

[RapidTransit]

They are getting non-articulated buses because there are locations where articulated buses don't make sense. Not only that, but what if the artics turn out to be lemons?

As for where the tender has gone......that's a good question, and all of my usual contacts know nothing about it. I can't help but wonder if NFI and Nova balked at the amount of time requested/required between delivery windows.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Would you use an artic on the 120 Calvington, or 74 Mount Pleasant?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

.
The TTC should lease or get a demo Articulated bus to reduce the chance of them getting a lemon. They've done this before. I'm sure TTC can use the existing 40ft they have and use them on routes like 74 and 120. Its a practice that TTC has been doing for years, like when they use 40fters to replace other 40fters. For example, TTC used GMs on 52 Lawerence, they replace those buses with existing 40ft they had because TTC got new buses at Wilson, that eventually moved buses over to MTD, where they replace the GMs. I can't believe I actually had to explain that to you...

 

[nfitz]

I believe that the STM has been using the same artics for a while. I've heard some negative stuff about the first batch (from a rider's perspective), but it's been quite positive about the recent ones. Given how comparable TTC and STM are, both in relative size and urban environment, surely if there were any concerns, they could be dealt with by a little due diligence.

 

[ShonTron]

I believe that the STM has been using the same artics for a while. I've heard some negative stuff about the first batch (from a rider's perspective), but it's been quite positive about the recent ones. Given how comparable TTC and STM are, both in relative size and urban environment, surely if there were any concerns, they could be dealt with by a little due diligence.

And the TTC could also have a look at New Flyer's new Xcelsior Artics that are now in operation in Brampton, though I have yet to ride one myself.

 

[smallspy]

Given the narrow streets and tight turns required along both of those routes, I would use the vehicle with the smallest turning radius - i.e. the articulated bus.

An articulated bus does not have the smallest turning radius. A 30 or 35 foot long bus (depending on who makes it and model) would be the winner in that competition. An articulated bus has the same turning radius as a 40 foot bus.

That's not the basis used for making large bus orders.

The only justification I'd see them proceeding with a non-artic order is if they need more buses earlier than the artic delivery date.

Well hold on a sec: let's look at the order just placed. It was originally tendered as a 3-year, 153 vehicle FIRM order. It was negotiated downwards, and is now a 1-year, 27 vehicle order with 126 options. There is obviously something up, as the TTC needs to replace a very good number of buses in the next couple of years and there have been no other bus orders made.

And considering that it is considered to take 150K kms - about two years of service - to properly debug a new fleet, perhaps they have changed their tune and will be starting light with artics and going heavy on the 40 footers. (Which means we should see an award of the 40 foot tender soon, if not already.)

The TTC should lease or get a demo Articulated bus to reduce the chance of them getting a lemon. They've done this before.

They have, although not recently. The problem is that the TTC has gotten very specific with their specifications over the past 15 years or so - since the 1990 New Flyer order fiasco - and thus I suspect that they are loathe to try something that isn't built the way they want it. And as big as the TTC is, they aren't big enough to have the manufacturers build a bus for them on spec.

I'm sure TTC can use the existing 40ft they have and use them on routes like 74 and 120. Its a practice that TTC has been doing for years, like when they use 40fters to replace other 40fters. For example, TTC used GMs on 52 Lawerence, they replace those buses with existing 40ft they had because TTC got new buses at Wilson, that eventually moved buses over to MTD, where they replace the GMs. I can't believe I actually had to explain that to you...

I guess you aren't aware then that there are specific fleets of buses that are tied to certain divisions and that can not move under any circumstances then?

Not only that, but moving around buses needlessly is a huge waste of resources. They don't drive themselves, you know...

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

Well hold on a sec: let's look at the order just placed. It was originally tendered as a 3-year, 153 vehicle FIRM order. It was negotiated downwards, and is now a 1-year, 27 vehicle order with 126 options. There is obviously something up, as the TTC needs to replace a very good number of buses in the next couple of years and there have been no other bus orders made.

Curious ...

And considering that it is considered to take 150K kms - about two years of service - to properly debug a new fleet, perhaps they have changed their tune and will be starting light with artics and going heavy on the 40 footers. (Which means we should see an award of the 40 foot tender soon, if not already.)

Wouldn't that be the same issue with the 40 footers, given that it's unlikely that there was no Orion bus in the bid (can't remember who all bidded - just Nova and New Flyer I'd assume).

LOL, the most likely scenario is simply that someone in TTC messed up the bid result and award result data, and nothing has changed.

 

[doady]

An articulated bus does not have the smallest turning radius. A 30 or 35 foot long bus (depending on who makes it and model) would be the winner in that competition. An articulated bus has the same turning radius as a 40 foot bus.

I was referring to 40, 50, 60 foot buses, which were the only buses discussed and compared in this thread. The 60 foot bus has a smaller turning radius than a 40 foot bus. For example, the New Flyer D60LF has a turning radius of 12.9m while the D40LF has a turning radius of of 13.4m. When tight turns are required, the artic is the better choice.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Apparently some articulated buses have "a steering arrangement on the rearmost axle which turns slightly in opposition to the front steering axle, allowing the vehicle to negotiate turns in a crab-like fashion, similar to hook-and-ladder fire trucks operating in city environments". From Wikipedia.

 

[nfitz]

It was originally tendered as a 3-year, 153 vehicle FIRM order. It was negotiated downwards, and is now a 1-year, 27 vehicle order with 126 options.

The report to the TTC on the purchase has clarified things. The 27 buses are firm for 2013 delivery, and the remaining 126 will be delivered in 2014, contingent on approval of the 2013 capital budget. Apparently currently they are approved for 56 for 2014 delivery and 70 for 2015 delivery, but they'll be seeking approval to advance them all to 2014, in the 2013 capital budget. So that's what the change was all about.

The report also shows that no 40' buses are currently planned to be purchased until 2016. So presumably the 40' tender has been cancelled, and it was only their for a contingency if they couldn't get any decent bids on the artic.

 

[BMO]

New Mockup of future TTC Artics

http://www.blogto.com/city/2012/10/the_ttc_offers_a_glimpse_at_its_new_articulated_buses/

The TTC has released the first computer-generated images of its new clean diesel articulated buses currently under construction by NovaBus in St-Eustache, Quebec. The first 27 vehicles to roll into town in 2013 will be pressed into use on the city's busiest routes - likely the 29 Dufferin, 7 Bathurst, 85A Sheppard, among others - as a priority.

The $24.3 million fleet of Nova LFS Artics are 18.8 metres long and have a total capacity of 112 seated and standing passengers. According to Transit Toronto, the current hybrid vehicles currently circulating on city streets hold roughly half that number. The full spec sheet is available here: http://www.novabus.com/documents/Fiche%20technique/LFS_EN.pdf

The TTC has tried articulated buses in the past with a small fleet of poorly-welded Hungarian vehicles that had an unfortunate tendency to corrode from the inside out. The last one was retired in 2003. These new, hopefully better-constructed vehicles are unlikely to make it faster to ride busier routes, though. NOW reports the high-capacity LFS Artics will run slightly further apart, saving the TTC roughly $1 million a year.

According to TTC spokesperson Brad Ross, the funds for another 126 of the vehicles are part of the TTC's as yet unapproved 2013 capital budget. As for bonus features, which Nova, a division of Volvo, offers on the Artics, the pickings will be rather slim. Ross says there won't be any "rock star tour bus-like accoutrements" such as folding tables and reading lights but there will be under-seat lighting in wheelchair areas and a city standard bike rack.

As per a 2008 decision, the TTC hasn't ordered the hybrid model because of battery problems on its existing buses.

The first fleet could become a stop-gap measure before LRT lines arrive in various parts of the city later this decade. A September Atlantic Cities post cited a study that connects increased transit ridership on lines served by rapid bus transit that later switch to light rail. Could these buses be the first step toward more riders in the long-run? What are your thoughts on the future of TTC surface transit?

 

[doady]

$1 million in savings per year for the TTC. That's incredible. These artics will definitely pay for themselves.

 

[BMO]

$1 million in savings per year for the TTC. That's incredible. These artics will definitely pay for themselves.

It's better than nothing I suppose. Hopefully they replace all major routes with these.