[socialwoe]

You can't have your RT extension zig-zagging across Scarborough. How will it turn north? Are you going to demolish all the buildings at that intersection? With that crazy routing, it won't even save much time for people from Malvern.

It would join the Progress n-s alignment from Ellesmere cutting through the gap between the apts on the east hand side. The TTC would also acquire the uppermost level of the parking lot adjoining the 2050 Ellesmere property, hence park and ride on the same floor .

But you just don't explain why you would want to link Durham to Peel. Nobody would take a subway from Durham to Peel, especially when the whole area could be served much more cheaply with regional rail.

Probably not everyone, but at least 10,000s would now have better than bus service. Several major cities have subway lines ran out to areas with less than 20,000 ppd. Why? Cause they're not being left behind! A crosstown line would likely see upwards a quarter million passengers a day, especially if tied in with the ACC/Pearson and SE Scarborough/Durham gateway. Think less traffic on the 401, less smog, less surface routes, more accessibilty, revitalization/dentrification stimulated, generates employment, makes getting across the city within an hour finally a posssibility (tell me when you've witnessed the 401 not gridlocked/traffic congested?) and the list goes on!

Transfers from regional rail to subway do take time, but the total travel time is much lower if the trip isn't taken all by subway since the stops are much less frequent.

Yeah cause a gauranteed every 90 seconds subway with a 10 sec interval per stops spread farther apart than BD is so much worse than 20 min or longer waits for commuter trains !

If dozens of other routes throughout the city were already built, an extension east as far as about UTSC wouldn't be so bad. West Hill is clearly too far and better served by a regional rail service.

You do realize you have to go through West Hill to access UTSC don't you? Yes Queen/DRL, BD and YUS extensions are higher priorities but Eglinton East/Kingston is so dense up to the Highland Creek area, it'd be a colossal mistake to ignore it indefinitely.

The TTC studied the subway option and determined that it wouldn't have any impact on existing RT operations.

Okey-dokey then!

No, it doesn't benefit them at all. People aren't going to take a bus east from Milliken only to go west again, or north from UTSC, only to go south again.

Except UTSC already does via 38 to STC. Unless a line approached the campus from the south they're grin****ed! As for Milliken, the massive regional bus terminal at Palmeston Place (Sheppard-Markham) would accomodate express service following Sheppard clockwise up McCowan to Hwy 7 then loop back down Markham via Markham-Stoufville Hosp.

Dig through the forum. You'll probably find the report.

When the heck would I find the time to do that :eek !

Have you ever been there? Of course it does! Not to mention all the connecting bus routes from the east.

Sheppard and Eglinton combined takes care of the heaviest traffic. It's wasteful to spend all available funds just for the sake of Thorncliffe Park, Donway and Graydon Hall when the trains will resemble half-empty throughout most of the day and would within 5 mins away from a subway via BRT.

That's just it: what does "complete the system" even mean? Why does the system necessarily have to run from one political boundary to another? What if there are lots and lots of people just on the other side of Steeles, but undeveloped parkland on the far east side of this city?

It means by the end of the century you'd still neglect parts of the city cause it doesn't meet your standards of population nodes! Berlin Wall coming to a city near you!

It took the TTC 6 months to punch the Pemberton bus exit through at Finch station.

Right, so a handful of condo owners in constrast to hundreds of 000s commuters results in equal demand and urgency?

The Ellesmere stop doesn't matter! It's a red herring. It's the politicians' anti-subway scapegoat.

Tell that to the 15, 000 plus current users of E+Midland not to mention the 000s more that'd be added once the interchange is eliminated and accessibilty increased.

There's absolutely nothing there that isn't also at Midland.

I get deebs for renaming the station. Tired of the a-holes asking "Is it named after the president?" anyway!

We have a useless toy train that needs to be put down. A subway removes the transfer, getting everyone in NE Scarborough downtown faster, and it has the capacity to handle growth

I love the choice of words "toy train" and "put down". Could you be any more condescending? So is it a rabid, mangy animal or a defective vehicle that's a choking hazard for toddlers? It's ironic I get flak for the mere suggestion of building a condo near R.C. Harris yet you're willing to abandon over 20 years of history so easily without batting an eyebrow.

the 42 (Cummer) could run into Morningside Heights and it would take them to Finch station faster than the 133C usually gets them to STC.

McNicoll barely runs past Markham. Your overtly complicated plan just reeks of mediocrity when the most obvious solution is, as I've always said, a subway. 133C forever ride? Subway. Hwy detour cutting off Oakmeadow/Centenary? Subway! forever trip to Finch Stn? Subway!! These people don't want or deserve less than any other citizen in the GTA when the lines' so close and a preexisting ROW's even closer. Check out the RTES report and see NE Scarborough as a job density matching STC's and even parts of downtown's. Stop treating it like shit under your boot >: !

They could implement rocket service, or a STC to UTSC direct express that could get there as fast as a car.

Wow you wouldn't stop 'til I had to suggest it! Since you're so against BD east of McCowan or a subway out to Morningside and further east which cannot currently support one or BD in the SRT alignment, why not run your McCowan line upto Milliken (but for pete's sake include Huntingwood and McNicoll intermediates) and have the SRT run to UTSC/Rouge Hill? (note: this option frees up Sheppard to service Malvern directly).

There'd be another stop a bit to the west, at Allanford/Agincourt Mall/Kennedy...you make it sound like the station at the junction is the only one on the whole line. The area is ripe for redevelopment...

Will Birchmount ever get it's own stop :\ ! God forbid anyone east of Kennedy wants a Sheppard line too!

that would receive virtually no benefits from your silly subways, you're easily talking about more people than would be served by said silly bits.

:rollin
Jane- Hwy 7, 407, Steeles, Finch (LRT/peripheral access)
Sheppard, Lawrence/Trethewey (DRL), Eglinton, St Clair
(512), Bloor, Lakeshore (South Kingsway).
Don Mills- Finch (LRT), Sheppard, Lawrence (LRT), Eglinton.

I'm talking about Finch West...the Sheppard subway should run along Finch west of York U - even the Network 2011 plan thought it should.

Jane-Finch aside nothing warrants it til Albion Rd. Sheppard West in constrast has very residential zone til Jane, a golf course that can be redeveloped into whatever, whenever (the hard part's already taken care of ), Hwy 400/Arrow industrial-factory employment outlet area, Humberlea community, 'downtown' Rexdale, GO stop(s), Dixon nodes, direct/idirect service to Pearson via interlines Eglinton and all the nodes along the 27 plus more favorable appraoch to the mall.

As if your ridiculous plans would "complete" the subway system. Given unlimited money, you'd build a subway to Starspray before the Don Mills line. The dozens and dozens of people who use the Lawrence bus out there every day would thank you. Or, they'd get on a GO train and curse you for wasting billion$ on a subway to the 416 equivalent of Siberia.

Total bullock right there! I did say 'every line imaginable' so if you felt a line to Major Mac or Hurontario was necessary it'd be built first. This is the last-last thing I'd implement, however to Morningside would be done decades earlier as the demand for it's there now, from yesterday! And they would not curse me cause I spared them from pnuemonia (by the way how can you rejoice in me contracting it? Shame on you!) standing in arctic tundra for upto an hour between when work ends and the train arrives, getting shipped off to an undesired destination resulting in back-tracking for twice the cost of the subway anyway :evil ! Direct, safe, one-way travel. Can't go wrong with a formula like that!

 

[Degnaw]

Ellesmere RT 1,712
Midland RT 4,092
source

15,000+? Not Quite

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ I said that if Midland & Ellesmere were combined at one station with a bus bay for the Ellesmere bus, it'd have a ridership of ~15,000 per day.

 

[Degnaw]

Even if the stations were consolidated, it would still only have a ridership of about 5,800, well short of 15,000. (unless theres something i'm missing)

...and i thought socialwoe (not you) said it would be 15,000...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, you're missing something. You do realize that the Ellesmere bus doesn't stop at Ellesmere station, right? I said it would be 15,000...socialwoe then claimed it would be 15,000 plus thousands more if the Ellesmere bus stopped there and if the subway was extended (even though he wants the SRT extended, but he'll say either depending on the context) because he likes counting things twice or thrice over to support his arguments.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

As for Milliken, the massive regional bus terminal at Palmeston Place (Sheppard-Markham) would accomodate express service following Sheppard clockwise up McCowan to Hwy 7 then loop back down Markham via Markham-Stoufville Hosp.

Or they could just get off at STC, jump on a McCowan or Brimley bus, and be home in 15 minutes.

Dig through the forum. You'll probably find the report.

Here it is:
www.toronto.ca/legdocs/20.../it031.pdf

It's wasteful to spend all available funds just for the sake of Thorncliffe Park, Donway and Graydon Hall when the trains will resemble half-empty throughout most of the day and would within 5 mins away from a subway via BRT.

The Don Mills corridor has one of the busiest bus routes in the city, is lined with all kinds of high-rises, and has almost 100,000 jobs.

Right, so a handful of condo owners in constrast to hundreds of 000s commuters results in equal demand and urgency?

Your responses are so wonderfully random. The Pemberton exit can be used by the almost 50,000 Steeles bus riders every day. Drewry, Cummer, and Yonge buses can also use it by going around the station if traffic's clogging up Bishop.

Tell that to the 15, 000 plus current users of E+Midland not to mention the 000s more that'd be added once the interchange is eliminated and accessibilty increased.

There's only like 6000 current users. Anyway, you want to extend the RT. Midland's patrons will be handled by a Sheppard line station and the rest will continue on down to Kennedy station - the Midland bus is usually faster than the RT as it is. The ~10,000 people that would use Ellesmere if the bus stopped there are currently taking other routes and can continue to do so. Midland and Ellesmere stations are not required and only a few hundred people would be inconvenienced if they were eliminated.

I get deebs for renaming the station. Tired of the a-holes asking "Is it named after the president?" anyway!

Sigh...yes, their names are different. That's about it, though.

It's ironic I get flak for the mere suggestion of building a condo near R.C. Harris yet you're willing to abandon over 20 years of history so easily without batting an eyebrow.

You betcha...the RT is junk. And that flak was well-deserved.

McNicoll barely runs past Markham. Your overtly complicated plan just reeks of mediocrity when the most obvious solution is, as I've always said, a subway. 133C forever ride? Subway. Hwy detour cutting off Oakmeadow/Centenary? Subway! forever trip to Finch Stn? Subway!! These people don't want or deserve less than any other citizen in the GTA when the lines' so close and a preexisting ROW's even closer. Check out the RTES report and see NE Scarborough as a job density matching STC's and even parts of downtown's. Stop treating it like shit under your boot

Another socialwoe classic.

Wow you wouldn't stop 'til I had to suggest it! Since you're so against BD east of McCowan or a subway out to Morningside and further east which cannot currently support one or BD in the SRT alignment, why not run your McCowan line upto Milliken (but for pete's sake include Huntingwood and McNicoll intermediates) and have the SRT run to UTSC/Rouge Hill? (note: this option frees up Sheppard to service Malvern directly).

Huntingwood? No way. McNicoll? Probably not. I'm not sure I'd even build a subway up McCowan, although I'd do it before I built a subway to Malvern since a McCowan subway allows Malvernites to access it via short westward bus trips. No, the SRT will not run to Rouge Hill. I thought you wanted a subway there? Which is it? The Sheppard line will run to STC.

Will Birchmount ever get it's own stop ! God forbid anyone east of Kennedy wants a Sheppard line too!

If there's a stop at Allanford, why should there be one at Birchmount, too? From STC, Malvernites will have two subway options.

And they would not curse me cause I spared them from pnuemonia (by the way how can you rejoice in me contracting it? Shame on you!) standing in arctic tundra for upto an hour between when work ends and the train arrives, getting shipped off to an undesired destination resulting in back-tracking for twice the cost of the subway anyway

That's the most accurate description of the Oshawa GO line I've ever heard! The only I'd change in that passage is that you'd contact tuberculosis instead.

 

[adma]

Quote:
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It's ironic I get flak for the mere suggestion of building a condo near R.C. Harris yet you're willing to abandon over 20 years of history so easily without batting an eyebrow.
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You betcha...the RT is junk. And that flak was well-deserved.

I guess it'd be ironic for getting flak for the mere suggestion that the Archer be moved from Nathan Phillips Square, while those flak-givers are willing to move Winston Churchill without batting an eyebrow.

And other examples like that.

Ever notice how socialwoe only participates on the Transportation Issues board? I'd love to see his take on art/design-oriented issues (including urban design)--if he had his way, Toronto would surely be dotted with "Borat PoMo" skyscrapers a la Moscow, I'll betcha...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I guess it'd be ironic for getting flak for the mere suggestion that the Archer be moved from Nathan Phillips Square, while those flak-givers are willing to move Winston Churchill without batting an eyebrow.

The difference is that only the masochistic would shed tears over the RT's demise. Those nostalgic for the RT can always go to Detroit and hear the RT's familiar acceleration whir but that's equivalent to Kim Phuc being nostalgic for the smell of napalm in the morning. I wonder if she's ever taken the RT?

 

[socialwoe]

Or they could just get off at STC, jump on a McCowan or Brimley bus, and be home in 15 minutes.

You give new meeting to the phrase "ignorance is bliss". McCowan or Brimley buses that have to serve every minor every-2-blocks apart stops, stop to lower steps for geriatrics, cross the 401, etc. Express along Sheppard-McCowan-7-Markham demises your plan for the Markville subway which is the exact reason you dislike it.

The Don Mills corridor has one of the busiest bus routes in the city, is lined with all kinds of high-rises, and has almost 100,000 jobs.

Fine I cave, give Don Mills a subway, you heard here first folks, Socialwoe wants a Don Mills subway hoorah :rolleyes !

The Pemberton exit can be used by the almost 50,000 Steeles bus riders every day. Drewry, Cummer, and Yonge buses can also use it by going around the station if traffic's clogging up Bishop.

WTFF :eek !?!

The ~10,000 people that would use Ellesmere if the bus stopped there are currently taking other routes and can continue to do so. Midland and Ellesmere stations are not required and only a few hundred people would be inconvenienced if they were eliminated.

Yeah you can really tell when transit's evolving when we have less accessiblity than we had 22 years ago.

Sigh...yes, their names are different. That's about it, though.

Maybe I should turn my sights on a Brichmount South stop instead :lol ? I suppose if and when an Eglinton line meets with Kennedy, the intersection would be more accessible, assuming we don't go the ELRT route using Upper Kennedy instead.

You betcha...the RT is junk. And that flak was well-deserved.

Not when you set up a trap for me and I fell in by mistake. I made no mention of R.C. til you did. Anyway what do you think the TTC should do with the property if abandoned? You know what I'd do.

Another socialwoe classic.

Yes it's mythological how I pointed out you'd be abandoning several 000 commuters south of the 401 not to mention exposing people to gridlock prolonging their agony. A subway even just to Markham/Sheppard is the fastest, best option for everyone in this part of the world.

Huntingwood? No way. McNicoll? Probably not. I'm not sure I'd even build a subway up McCowan, although I'd do it before I built a subway to Malvern since a McCowan subway allows Malvernites to access it via short westward bus trips. No, the SRT will not run to Rouge Hill. I thought you wanted a subway there? Which is it? The Sheppard line will run to STC.

Wow another Scarberiankhatru classic !
You just love overloading STC with buses don't you when 165, 130 and 131 could be siphoned off with a HW stop not to mention hitting a major industrial employment site. Since Finch and Steeles are even further apart than they are at Yonge, McNicoll is an absolute must, or do you not care about hitting these astronomically high population densities you claim exist all along McCowan north? Oh I see you just come with shit to blight the relevance of my proposals.

Malvernites would be closer to Markham Rd than McCowan, hence microscopic bus trips in constrast. I do want a subway to Rouge Hill but if you paid attention you'd know I said since you claim it'll never have the ppd to support one but deserves more than just buses, kill two birds with one stone. Centenary, Cenntennial, UTSC, Highland Creek hit with provisions to either veer down to RH or up Meadowvale to that zoological place you hate. I do hope you got through all that !

If there's a stop at Allanford, why should there be one at Birchmount, too? From STC, Malvernites will have two subway options.

Route 17 riders officially hate you now! Malvern will have the same bus options they have today and that's all that matters.

That's the most accurate description of the Oshawa GO line I've ever heard! The only I'd change in that passage is that you'd contact tuberculosis instead.

And you AIDS :rollin !
Just goes to show GO isn't as rapid, reliable or convenient for East Scarberians as you'd like to believe making a line even just to Guildwood (I don't know how many compromises it'll take to convince you people an Eglinton East line's overdue but oh well) would reduce some commutes by 20-30 mins easy especially for uptowners/North Yorkers/ Etobicokers.

I guess it'd be ironic for getting flak for the mere suggestion that the Archer be moved from Nathan Phillips Square, while those flak-givers are willing to move Winston Churchill without batting an eyebrow.

I don't how you expect me to treat parkland and industrial sprawl with the same reverance as a historic building or monument when it's worth to the few econuts is far outweighed by the welfare of the many. Why should the city be held random when the fate of where to run subway lines is determined by whether it'll obstruct the habitat of tree-rats (squirrels) and a few blades of grass oxidizing the atomsphere?

Ever notice how socialwoe only participates on the Transportation Issues board? I'd love to see his take on art/design-oriented issues (including urban design)

Maybe I should explore other issues though I'm sure I won't find another cast of characters as colourful as you all to discourse with . If Borat PoMo is what's keeping Moscow's system as one of world most renown (have you seen the mezzanines of some stations?) than why wouldn't I consider it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

not to mention hitting a major industrial employment site.

You consider every building over 5000 ft² a major node.

 

[adma]

If Borat PoMo is what's keeping Moscow's system as one of world most renown (have you seen the mezzanines of some stations?) than why wouldn't I consider it.

No, that's not what I'm talking about--though given your response, I'm probably correct in my assumption.

In terms of Toronto, I guess, stuff like this

or this

as opposed to

 

[adma]

Anyone notice how socialwoe's vanished? Got bored, or got banned, I don't know...

 

[Ed007Toronto]

Wasn't banned.

 

[socialwoe]

Anyone notice how socialwoe's vanished? Got bored, or got banned, I don't know...

Yeah it was boredom |I .

You consider every building over 5000 ft² a major node.

If the demand and density's there why shouldn't I consider it a node? The point I'm making is why would you spend billions to build a subway line solely for Point A-B travellers while the deserving intermediate populations get shafted? If you're going to go through all that trobule you may as give the half-concessions their subway stops too (Huntingwood, McNicoll, all the arterials throughout the core and along Eglinton). An adjacent third track for express trains applied to the lines I proposed in my map would beat the fastest GO anyday!

Eglinton-Queen Express Line
Rouge Hill
UTSC
Markham
Kennedy
Flemingdon Park
Yonge-Eglinton
Allen
Black Creek
Martin Grove
Pearson
Burnhamthrope
Sherway
Kipling South
Humber/South Kingsway
Parkdale/Dufferin
Spadina South
Yonge-Queen
Riverdale/Braodview
Coxwell South
Danforth/Victoria Park

No, that's not what I'm talking about--though given your response, I'm probably correct in my assumption.

I don't know what's wrong with any of those buildings. A good city is marked by it's ability to embrace the past while adapting to the future. Subways don't have to end in major hubs to be of use to the 000s sometimes tens of 000s that live near an end-route and due to poor bus service are cut-off and isolated from the rest of the city (Albion/Long Branch/Fallingbrook/Malvern/Rouge Hill). It's sad I had to resort to 'building condos' in an attempt to convince you that these communities are deserving.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Local subway lines combined with express subway lines...now that's a fantasy plan.