[rbt]

Im saying dont build anything until you can build it properly.

That's by far the cheapest option as nothing at all needs to be built. Going for perfect is a great way to kill good-enough.

Good-enough and an incremental approach is nearly always the more successful way to build damn near anything (private or public).

 

[coffey1]

That's by far the cheapest option as nothing at all needs to be built. Going for perfect is a great way to kill good-enough.

Good-enough and an incremental approach is nearly always the more successful way to build damn near anything (private or public).

Why do some try to skew my words. I said "if you dont build it properly dont bother". That's a big difference then not building in increments if we absolutely have to. Im saying dont build the Sheppard line unless its integrated fairly. The transfer to a stubway is unacceptable so dont build it until people get there crap together. This is absurd transit building

I think its an absolute shame the SMLRT is not funded & the SLRT could be improved in many areas of it design from the route to the transfer. But the SLRT in its current form is OK as part of a larger well integrated local network

All i have done is explain as to why we have divisive politics & subway support in Scarborough. It's because not enough citizens in Scarborough receive enough benefit from this piss poor funded LRT plan.

If there really is no understanding of this or any will to help Scarborough receive something it considers useful for the majority than your going to see hard counter divisive politics & expensive subway politics being played in return. One form of ridiculousness vs. another.

Im just saying work together. 3-4 billion for subways could cover and awful lot of LRT and the Sheppard subway conversion instead of subway extension. But the only reason that type of funding is available is because of the Subway push back from Scarborough & other outlying areas of Toronto which are not being listened to.

 

[Palma]

I remember when the "Scarborough tax" was introduced onto our property tax and we were told it would remain on there for 30 years if I am not mistaken. Why is it Tory is proposing 0.5% tax increase each year for 5 years starting in 2017 after Scarborough tax expires for the proposed "City Building Fund"? This does not make sense. He says it adds up to $13.00 per home per year. I have not looked on my property tax, but is there a dedicated line that shows a dollar amount for the Scarborough subway?

The only way Toronto was going to come up with its share (the difference between LRT and subway cost) was through tax increase and it was going to take 30 years. I refuse to believe the Scarborough tax will come off and if yes does that not mean no Scarborough subway?. I need to do some research but I remember the proposal was an increase each year for 4 years and then it would remain on the property tax bill for 30 years. That would add up to the 1.4B or whatever needed to be raised.

John Tory is making it sound like Scarborough is coming off when in reality the increases in the Scarborough subway tax stops but the tax amount still remains on our property tax bills. Am I wrong on this. If the city has been able to raise money for the Scarborough subway in 4 years, guess it won't be too long before there are able to raise money for other subway lines

 

[rbt]

Why do some try to skew my words. I said "if you dont build it properly dont bother". ... Im saying dont build the Sheppard line unless its integrated fairly.

I understand this, and that is exactly what that area has received (didn't bother); it's buses and stairs at Don Mills for the foreseeable future.

Sheppard LRT, which was even under construction at one point is politically dead. Ford and City council killed hit, but now local Liberal MPs are beating the carcass while holding out for their "perfect" solution. Delaying the new start date until long after an election, nearly 2 elections, was not accidental.

Incidentally their version of perfect is the 1985 subway plan and they're holding out for Metrolinx's mythical 3rd wave to fund it**. Read that date again to fully understand the timelines involved. 0% of the population who looked at that plan in 1985 will benefit from it coming to completion; a brave sacrifice for them to think of the future generations.

Your specific version of perfect isn't even an option being considered as an option, but perhaps after another decade of inaction it'll become an official plan once the public sees how successful the Eglinton LRT has been now that it's been open for a few years; then funding/design bickering, and perhaps a construction start in 2028; oops, recession, make that 2031.

** If you assume the conservatives win a minority in 2018 with an infrastructure pause and restructure policy, then 2022 is a great time to push another Liberal driven transit spending spree and the 1985 Sheppard Subway plan may well make it onto that list as something to be finished around 2035. Politically, this is the optimistic plan for Sheppard.

 

[arcum]

Can we stop living in the past? Yes, we know Transit City was killed by Rob Ford.

It's indisputable that the subway is the better choice for Scarborough and it what they deserve after having to put up with the SRT for 30 years. Whether it's worth the cost premium is another question. This was up to city council to decide and they chose the subway.

Sheppard LRT will commence construction following the Finch LRT in the 2020s.

 

[coffey1]

I understand this, and that is exactly what that area has received and since elections usually change plans, it's buses and stairs at Don Mills for the foreseeable future.

Sheppard LRT, which was even under construction at one point is politically dead. Ford and City council killed hit, but now local Liberal MPs are beating the carcass while holding out for their "perfect" solution. Delaying the new start date until after an election was not accidental.

Incidentally, they're holding out for Metrolinx's mythical 3rd wave to fund the original 1985 subway plan. Read that date again and tell me that holding out for perfect isn't the enemy of good-enough.

We are likely only one more divisive Politician away from having what you call mythical become reality. Look what the Ford narrative was able to accomplish when there as a crappy LRT plan already under contract.

If there's no middle ground found under Tory. Things are going to get interesting & not in a good way. If there's no interest in providing Scarborough an integrated, expansive LRT network than expensive Subways certainly aernt going anywhere.

You would certainly like to believe this was mythical & I understand why. But that's not the reality we are heading in. People are fed up

 

[nfitz]

Im saying dont build anything until you can build it properly.

We can build LRT properly. It's far better solution than waiting decades for a much shorter subway.

Not building anything except subway sounds like the position of Scarborough NIMBYs who want to drive.

 

[coffey1]

We can build LRT properly. It's far better solution than waiting decades for a much shorter subway.

Not building anything except subway sounds like the position of Scarborough NIMBYs who want to drive.

Not building anything except poorly integrated LRT patches is the position of Downtown or ELITES with their ENTITLED neck beard following who follow them blindly want to horde transit dollars and force Scarborough to continue to drive

You are correct though, we should be building LRT properly.... But throwing stones can be done from both sides of the Political spectrum & solves nothing. We are currently forced to fight over two inefficient Political plans

Surely there is middle ground on this nonsense. How to get polarizing Politicians on either side to find it is another issue.

 

[nfitz]

Not building anything except poorly integrated LRT patches is the position of Downtown or ELITES with their ENTITLED neck beard following who follow them blindly want to horde transit dollars and force Scarborough to continue to drive

I don't see how this advances the discussion.

I might as well say, building it is the position of Fordies who beat their wives, smoke crack, and procure underage hookers.

While both statements might be true, it fails to describe the situation.

Building this 14-km line as subway is in the $4 to $6-billion range. It disingenuous to pretend that is anywhere close to being a reality in our lifetimes.

 

[salsa]

Not building anything except poorly integrated LRT patches is the position of Downtown NIMBY's who want to horde transit dollars and force Scarborough to continue to drive


Surely there is middle ground on this nonsense. How to get polarizing Politicians on either side to find it is another issue.

As if the small handful of downtown councillors are somehow responsible for this shit show. You want a middle ground? For starters, you can cut it out with your anti-downtown rhetoric. Second, stop electing so much divisive trash to our council chambers or the mayor's office. Seriously, whenever I stream a council debate, I have to hit the mute button whenever Glen DeDumbaker talks. Ditto for most other Scarborough councillors.

 

[BurlOak]

Look at the latest AG report and the waste of 10's of Billions of dollars by this government.

The fact is that Scarborough Subway Subway is just a rounding error to a government that is used to wasting orders of magnitude more for political payback and opportunism.

 

[LNahid2000]

Yes it's a ridiculous transfer. For those getting on from McCowan to Vic Park have already likely been on a bus & are now forced to transfer in the same bloody direction. This is not fair to the disabled, elderly or even the everyday commuter as a bus would be more convenient and add only a few minutes to the commute.

Where is the benefit? Why tear up the road & waste the money. Correct the Stubway mistake as this shouldn't be considered proper transit in any areas of the City

The transfer could be timed, as is done in many major cities, so that the transfer is barely an inconvenience. With a properly timed transfer, maybe a minute would be added to a same direction trip.

 

[kEiThZ]

A lot of folks on here don't get how right Coffey1. About the state of polarization in Scarborough. He's articulated better than me why LRT has been a hard sell in Scarborough. And unfortunately, most of that uneasiness got wrapped in with Ford's anti-LRT, pro-car rhetoric which belies the fact that a lot of the issues that people have with the LRT is that from their perspective it doesn't seem to benefit them much.

I'd take LRT over subway. But LRT shouldn't be a way to simply cheap out on one corridor. If the city is willing to spend $3 billion on the subway right now, there's no reason they can't commit to spending the same $3 billion on several LRTs over the next decade. As it stands, the choice is fight for the subway or get an LRT with the same annoying transfer as the SRT, another annoying transfer with an LRT stub on Sheppard (doesn't even serve all of Sheppard East), and a vague promise of another LRT for south Scarborough in two decades. If you're a Scarborough resident anywhere in the East and Southeast, the plan doesn't look appealing. So quite making it LRT vs. subway on one given corridor. Show those residents that the choice is between the subway or three fully-funded LRT lines. Watch the change in support for LRT.

As for the most contentious topic at hand, the SRT replacement, I'm starting to think, you're almost better off with that at-grade Danforth-McCowan LRT. Cheaper. Serves the hospital at Lawrence more directly. Allows for more stops along the way than just the SRT stops, which are largely useless today anyway, so moving the transfer points for all those bus routes a bit east won't matter. It can be continued north on McCowan right to Steeles if they want or terminated at SC.

We are far too constrained by thinking of the current SRT route. And tend think of it as a direct replacement. This is what has us in this set-piece fight between subway and LRT. Thing is, the current SRT has nearly subway like stop spacing. Replacing it with LRT, with the same spacing simply makes the point that the LRT isn't offering anything more. Change that. Run the LRT at-grade on Danforth-McCowan. Lots of Mid-block stops, like at Seminole and Brimorton can be added. SC can be served with a short diversion in from McCowan.

As for Malvern, serve it with a branch of Sheppard. Anybody bound for SC can simply change from the Sheppard LRT to the McCowan LRT.

The end result would be Eglinton branching into two services: Danforth-McCowan and Eglinton-Kingston-Morninside. Sheppard would serve Malvern with a spur. And Sheppard would become the continuous northern crosstown it was always meant to be. This unclusterf****d plan would sell in Scarborough.

 

[coffey1]

As if the small handful of downtown councillors are somehow responsible for this shit show. You want a middle ground? For starters, you can cut it out with your anti-downtown rhetoric. Second, stop electing so much divisive trash to our council chambers or the mayor's office. Seriously, whenever I stream a council debate, I have to hit the mute button whenever Glen DeDumbaker talks. Ditto for most other Scarborough councillors.

I don't have anti-downtown rhetoric. I have an Anti political rhetoric on both sides & a distain the downtown political media megaphone. My anti-downtown comment was tongue & cheek to the anti suburb comment. And was just making a point that picking sides in this stupid debate over two crappy plans gets us nowhere.

Toronto's outskirts are being treated with complete Political disrespect that others don't seem to understand. So in return the core is now having to deal with the opposite end of unfair divisive Politics. Scarborough will certainly not let go of Subways as long as that say crappy transfer patch LRT hack job is the all that s being offered in return.

Yes Scarborough Councilors are hard to swallow but you seem to have a strong bias that the others are much more intelligent. Josh "the mouth" Matlow seems to have all the answers for Scarborough yet doesn't really offer up any practical solutions to help matters other than the same ol' LRT vs Subway rhetoric & he sure gets a ton of "positive" news space in the Metroland new realm.

Be thankful you only have to read quotes from Glen D unless its being use as negative slant in the Elitist media

 

[44 North]

So what's the Scarboro consensus on something like Michael Scabas' "Scarborough Wye"? This was basically an idea to convert Sheppard to light metro (e.g ART MkII) and extend it eastward elevated over the 401, then interline the whole thing with an SRT using the same technology. I don't care for Schabas or his opinions, but was wondering if that proposal would seem more optimal than SSE or SELRT + S(L)RT. Lemme find a pic.

http://www.neptis.org/publications/.../solution-scarborough-impasse-scarborough-wye