[crs1026]

If the city is willing to spend $3 billion on the subway right now, there's no reason they can't commit to spending the same $3 billion on several LRTs over the next decade.

Exactly. This is what's needed. I'd support this, and I'm from Etobicoke.

I wonder what it would take to change the Official Plan to make the current SRT route a more attractive development zone. I understand the precedent this would create - the City's position is that employment lands cannot be converted to residential lands, period - and I appreciate that doing so creates a slippery slope given OMB etc. But is a "without prejudice" trade possible? Earmark the same amount of employment lands somewhere else and create the possibility of development along the SRT. Maybe cast the "without prejudice" thing in legislation - a private members' bill, if Cabinet doesn't want to touch it. This approach may not do anything for today's commuter, but only a few years' growth would tip the balance. People do move around.

It just seems so wasteful to tear down a piece of infrastructure that could be adapted to a better future use.

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

The Schabas plan is exactly the type of compromise plan that should have been pursued. IIRC, cost wise the "Scarborough Subway" was equivalent in cost to a Wye Proposal along with an elevated Eglinton line.

There were a few details I did not agree with.

1. He had the line going above highway 404. Due to the depth of the Don Mills Station, the grade to highway 404, and the proximity, it had to go under 404 similar to the LRT and Subway extension plans.
2. I would have continued the line elevated along Sheppard to Agincourt. From there is could curve south toward Midland Station. I guess you could keep 401 in your pocket in case there is resistance, but I am quite sure that residents along that stretch would quickly support an elevated line when they realized the option is a detour along 401 and not underground through their neighbourhood.
3. I don't think Schabas had enough detail, but I sketched it out and I think the Agincourt Branch would not stop at Midland Station. The southerly branch could still stop at Midland, or it could be abandoned. I think I had an option of coming down Midland, or going along the Markham GO and West Highland Creek.
4. I would extend the terminus to Morningside/Finch if a Crosstown GO ever becomes reality.
5. I also considered a (future) branch from Centennial to UTSC.
6. If the SRT stops at Kennedy and is not connected to the Eglinton line, it would be a bit over $1B to extend the subway along Eglinton to meet the LSE GO and future Kingston Road BRT.

 

[salsa]

So what's the Scarboro consensus on something like Michael Scabas' "Scarborough Wye"? This was basically an idea to convert Sheppard to light metro (e.g ART MkII) and extend it eastward elevated over the 401, then interline the whole thing with an SRT using the same technology. I don't care for Schabas or his opinions, but was wondering if that proposal would seem more optimal than SSE or SELRT + S(L)RT. Lemme find a pic.

http://www.neptis.org/publications/.../solution-scarborough-impasse-scarborough-wye

The choice is simple if you ask me. Should we be building transit lines that serve neighbourhoods?

Or transit lines that run next to highways and industrial parks?

This proposal represents one the worst aspects of the SRT that nobody likes (which is the alignment), and doubles down on it. Hardly anyone lives next to any the new stations, there are no city-building or streetscape improvement opportunities, it doesn't connect to the Stouffville line, and there are limited redevelopment opportunities. The only good thing that can be said is that it's a faster trip between Yonge & STC, but on the occasions when I have to make such a trip, the GO bus will always be the fastest option.

 

[rbt]

We are likely only one more divisive Politician away from having what you call mythical become reality.

It may happen if you wait long enough. Plenty of people are still hoping for that Scarborough Expressway or Queen LRT subway too; sometimes a missed opportunity really is missed.

Optimistically, if it does happen like the current reps for Scarborough want, Sheppard will have been about 50 years from conception to implementation; 2 generations riding buses while waiting.

The province (Liberals, Conservatives, and staff), who has most of the cash, has decided GO is far better at capital expansion than TTC both from a get-it-done perspective and ROI. Metrolinx planners seems more interested in a Steeles LRT than anything on Sheppard at this point; can't really blame them and it better fits with their regional mantra too.


Defer too long and those with the money will suddenly believe it's not particularly urgent.

 

[Hopkins123]

So what's the Scarboro consensus on something like Michael Scabas' "Scarborough Wye"? This was basically an idea to convert Sheppard to light metro (e.g ART MkII) and extend it eastward elevated over the 401, then interline the whole thing with an SRT using the same technology. I don't care for Schabas or his opinions, but was wondering if that proposal would seem more optimal than SSE or SELRT + S(L)RT. Lemme find a pic.

http://www.neptis.org/publications/.../solution-scarborough-impasse-scarborough-wye

I think a Sheppard subway extension would be a lot easier pill to swallow were it built majorly above-grade following the existing SRT alignment to McCowan, then onwards to Malvern Town Centre along the same path where the latter proposal was going to go. Even using Sheppard East for the right-of-way though the line could be elevated most of the way between Consumers and the Stoufville GO corridor, trenched where it may become too invasive like in-between Pharmacy and Palmsdale.

 

[coffey1]

Defer too long and those with the money will suddenly believe it's not particularly urgent.

Oh no..... Not the fear of not receiving a patched in inconvenient LRT line. Buses are fine until the City/Province wakes up and integrates Scarborough with some level of fairness otherwise it's a push to integrate with the exsiitng subways.

And If the SSE gets built id wager a good bet that it's pretty much a done deal that Sheppard is extended to McCowan to complete the subway loop. Why do people think its LRT been delayed so substantially? Im mean clearly they know the majority don't care for it. Its because Politicians know if the SSE is built that Sheppard is inevitable & the Liberals want it as far out as possible so thye don't take blame for another couple Billion even though they are just as guilty as Ford & Miller for creating the problem with the lack of funding & cutting back of lines which lost major chunks of support in Scarborough.

Is what it is. Wake me up when there's a fairly integrated, expansive LRT plan that benefits the majority in Scarborough otherwise its buses & subways.

The thing is traffic will only get worse & Scarborough is not an island that will break away from the Don Valley and float away some day. If we don't deal with it today we will deal with it later. And expensive subways never seemed to stop North York from getting LRT for their priority areas. So I assume It's possible Scarborough may still get the SMLRT or similar in a few decades to serve their poor even after the subway.

But look at the bright side, you didn't have to pay to get rid of the LRT transfers or fund a complete LRT network & that seem important to many of you.

 

[Edward Skira]

Yes it's a ridiculous transfer

The city really needs to build a line from Dufferin to St Patrick. I hate that I have to transfer at St. George.

 

[salsa]

The city really needs to build a line from Dufferin to St Patrick. I hate that I have to transfer at St. George.

TTC should reinstate their short-lived interlining experiment. Why should anyone have to be forced to make unnecessary transfers? It's only fair right? You deserve it.

 

[coffey1]

The city really needs to build a line from Dufferin to St Patrick. I hate that I have to transfer at St. George.

Yes because that's a such great comparison to Sheppard Ave in Scarborough.

 

[Edward Skira]

Yes because that's a such great comparison to Sheppard Ave in Scarborough.

At Kennedy Station it certainly is.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The transfer can be annoying if you have to do it more than once. Having said that, it isn't a reason to discount reusing the SRT alignment, considering the centrality of links to the rest of Scarborough at STC. Taking a new alignment with little potential for densification is pointless and isn't a good use of scant transit dollars.

AoD

 

[coffey1]

The transfer can be annoying if you have to do it more than once. Having said that, it isn't a reason to discount reusing the SRT alignment, considering the centrality of links to the rest of Scarborough at STC. Taking a new alignment with little potential for densification is pointless.

AoD

Taking a sharp turn away from core commuters thorough industrial no mans land is pointless. The alignment, the transfer, the fact there is nothing else useful other than buses running in Scarborough. And they wonder why the majority area of Scarborough doesn't support this?

This is not Dufferin and Bloor as one poster tried to compare. Its massive transit desert which is being offered nothing else but a Sheppard LRT which further complicates matters with a truly absurd transfer.

The proposed subway is an improvement for convenience and shorter bus routes for the majority over anything else offered. Not sure why its so hard to figure out the support here.

Sure Scarborough doesn't need a subway, I agree its bloody expensive. But without a fair, funded LRT plan it is the best plan on the table for the majority of Scarborough. And the, unfair, patchwork, poorly designed, poorly funded, LRT plan can disappear.

Look at the overall plan. Not just one line and hopefully it'll make more sense as to why we are here. Arguing over one line that leave the majority no better off than today will get us no where & subways will likely be built. Build it properly the first time or don't bother.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Taking a sharp turn away from core commuters thorough industrial no mans land is pointless. The alignment, the transfer, the fact there is nothing else useful other than buses running in Scarborough. And they wonder why the majority area of Scarborough doesn't support this?

That's exactly what people have been using - so clearly it isn't pointless, unless you want to argue that those who currently transfer at Kennedy aren't using it because it is running through industrial lands.

Look at the overall plan. Not just one line and hopefully it'll make more sense as to why we are here. Arguing over one line that leave the majority no better off than today will get us no where & subways will likely be built. Build it properly the first time or don't bother.

The majority will never be that much better off with a limited resource like a single subway line, period, because there is only so much you can catch with a single alignment. And if you spend all you have on a single line, ostensibly because it is "right", you'd never get anything else. How is that better off for the majority?

Perhaps a better issue to focus on isn't the route for the BD extension, but how GO LSE and additional stations will be integrated with local transit. That would do far more alleviate the transit issue over and above jugging the BD alignment.

AoD

 

[diminutive]

TTC should reinstate their short-lived interlining experiment. Why should anyone have to be forced to make unnecessary transfers? It's only fair right? You deserve it.

View attachment 60840

It may not even be technically feasible, but that probably is a good idea. A significant portion of WB and EB traffic on the BD line is downtown bound. The time savings for that group would outweigh the additional weight times for the smaller group BD riders who don't transfer onto the Yonge or University lines.

It'd also potentially relieve Yonge n Bloor a bit.

 

[Duck]

Explain to me something: Everybody always shits all over the rt because they complain that the route services nothing and goes through an industrial wasteland.

The route was picked long before the technology ever was. It would have been just as shitty if it was streetcars running along it.

So who picked the route? Why is it so bad? Did people bitch in 1985?