Cobra
Senior Member
Perhaps the right question should be what will the PC do. I don't see Kathleen Wynne...win
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
They will do whatever will get them elected. No matter what stripe you belong to, doing that in Scarborough meant subways no matter the cost.
AoD
Rainforest
Senior Member
A sensible pitch regarding the Scarborough transit, for either the Libs or the PCs, would be:
a) Offer to pay 50% of the cost of Lawrence East and Brimley / Eglinton stations, if the city agrees to fund the remaining 50%.
Lawrence East may cost $150 to $200 million, less challenging Brimley / Eglinton should not require more than $100 million.
Thus, we will be back to a 3-stop extension, even though it will not reach Sheppard and will not regain all riders it could have.
b) Swap the priorities of Sheppard East LRT and Eglinton East LRT. Eglinton East becomes fully funded, while Sheppard East gets bumped into the "next next" wave.
Both projects are of similar scope, length, and cost, thus the province will have to spend little or no extra money to build it. The only problem is to find a place for maintenance facility, instead of Conlins Rd that would serve Sheppard.
Since Eglinton East encounters no opposition, its construction can start and proceed without delays that have plagued Sheppard East so far.
a) Offer to pay 50% of the cost of Lawrence East and Brimley / Eglinton stations, if the city agrees to fund the remaining 50%.
Lawrence East may cost $150 to $200 million, less challenging Brimley / Eglinton should not require more than $100 million.
Thus, we will be back to a 3-stop extension, even though it will not reach Sheppard and will not regain all riders it could have.
b) Swap the priorities of Sheppard East LRT and Eglinton East LRT. Eglinton East becomes fully funded, while Sheppard East gets bumped into the "next next" wave.
Both projects are of similar scope, length, and cost, thus the province will have to spend little or no extra money to build it. The only problem is to find a place for maintenance facility, instead of Conlins Rd that would serve Sheppard.
Since Eglinton East encounters no opposition, its construction can start and proceed without delays that have plagued Sheppard East so far.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
There's absolutely no reason to build a Brimley/Eglinton station when the province already has one planned in the Eglinton East LRT.
sixrings
Senior Member
Correction they will promise to do whatever it takes to get elected.. delay delay delay... in the next next election they will promise they are ready to begin so please vote for them again... rinse and repeat
OneCity
Senior Member
Here's a good laugh:
"The Ontario PC Party has always been supportive of subways."
In any event these PC's have been clear for their support for subways In Toronto. At the very least that will set the tone for subways on Sheppard, keep the DRL moving in design and help get the SSE to construction.
The real question and biggest variable in transit building (planning) here is the next City Election. If Tory gets in we'll likely have a mix bag of projects no one is ecstatic about but they'll be moving forward which isnt horrible, if he gets the boot Smarttrack is likely gone and these funds could be better used. If Ford runs and gets in, its likely all about subways: DRL, likely Sheppard starting & improving the SSE, if "insert LRT candidate" gets in It could get ugly all around if they try to start the process of overturning the subway.
The Province will just "support" wherever the wind blows but I dont expect much in the way of new funds until plans are "shovel ready". Possibly some Eglinton LRT funding from the Liberals to boost Tory. But that is far from a guarantee.
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Cobra
Senior Member
Public transit investment was never about "left vs. right". "liberals vs. conservative".
I think Mike Harris and most recently Stephen Harper "traumatized" people into thinking Conservatives are "anti-transit" or "anti-infrastructure". Historically, Progressive-Conservatives usually do spend in infrastructure as a way to stimulate the economy. We are quick to forget that we lived under Liberal governments in the past who were just as transit and infrastructure negligent as past Conservative governments.
If anything, the left portraying themselves as "transit" champions for political gain did more harm than good instead of just giving the transit planning to an independent agency like Metrolinx and depoliticize the issue. Opposition parties job is...well...to oppose whatever the governing party is doing and the PC criticizing Wynne is not surprising. As I always said, usually, right wing government tends to go after costly programs ahead of infrastructure spending. Look at the south of the border. Even under very extreme right-wing republicans, they are still massively investing in public transit and subsidizing the transit companies operations, way more than in Canada.
The PC have good reasons to generate this skepticism after what Harris did but I don't think they are idiots either.
The best case scenario is to push current projects to shovel ready status and to procurement. The PC are very unlikely to cancel projects that are in that stage. This is what might happen:
Subways:
I think Mike Harris and most recently Stephen Harper "traumatized" people into thinking Conservatives are "anti-transit" or "anti-infrastructure". Historically, Progressive-Conservatives usually do spend in infrastructure as a way to stimulate the economy. We are quick to forget that we lived under Liberal governments in the past who were just as transit and infrastructure negligent as past Conservative governments.
If anything, the left portraying themselves as "transit" champions for political gain did more harm than good instead of just giving the transit planning to an independent agency like Metrolinx and depoliticize the issue. Opposition parties job is...well...to oppose whatever the governing party is doing and the PC criticizing Wynne is not surprising. As I always said, usually, right wing government tends to go after costly programs ahead of infrastructure spending. Look at the south of the border. Even under very extreme right-wing republicans, they are still massively investing in public transit and subsidizing the transit companies operations, way more than in Canada.
The PC have good reasons to generate this skepticism after what Harris did but I don't think they are idiots either.
The best case scenario is to push current projects to shovel ready status and to procurement. The PC are very unlikely to cancel projects that are in that stage. This is what might happen:
Subways:
- Relief Long (it's suicide to cut it or trim the project, the PC needs Toronto)
- Scarborough Extension (2-3 stations, not just 1. Getting North of the 401 votes in Scarborough by adding Sheppard East could do that)
- Sheppard Subway to Scarborough Centre (some type of commitment or possibly in phases... Phase I to McCowan, Phase II to Downview)
- Richmond Hill Subway (They will promise it for a post DRL scenario, so they don't need to put it in their books in this mandate or the next)
- Kipling extension (Unlikely to be funded)
- Eglinton Crosstown is safe
- Finch West will be too far along by next year so safe
- Crosstown West is in the books and would be popular for Etobicoke
- Crosstown East will be dead. Unfunded and adding stops to Scarborough subway will be their priority, even the Liberals said they wouldn't free money for it, so will the PC
- Waterfront LRT. Unfunded and switching the narrative to the DRL will avoid them a backlash
- Sheppard LRT. So dead...Subway will be promised instead. Best case scenario in phases, most likely nothing happens here
- Could be cut so the $3.7B the city planned to use on those station be freed to upgrade the Scarborough project.
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robmausser
Senior Member
Okay, I'll try this again:
I actually like this alignment even more than McCowan for the direct connections to Centennial College and Malvern Town Centre.
Hopefully future stations at Ellesmere, Bellamy and Morningside Heights could be factored in if Murray's proposal were to be revisited and selected.
I thought id take the Murray map you did and see how Sheppard would be extended onto it.
I quite like it to be honest. Sheppard goes to STC like in the original extension plans, but would continue along the same trackage built for Line 2 extension.
Interlining of services is something that other transit agencies do and Toronto seems to neglect. It means you can build once and have 2 services reach key areas for ridership.
All you would need to build from the Sheppard line extension perspective is the track from Don Mills to around Ellesmere, and suddenly you have a Sheppard line that goes to STC, Centennial college and Malvern Town Centre.
Hope this isn't too fantasy mappy, im replying to an existing comment here so there is some relevance I hope.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
At least you admit the PC's have lied about subways before. We have no reason to believe they won't do it again.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
This is a good list. I would move Sheppard up to green, if Brown really wants to take it all.
I'm personally worried about the GO service. It's taking for ever to implement.
Cobra
Senior Member
And the Liberals haven't?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Brown need GO (905) to work out for him more than he need Scarborough.
AoD
Cobra
Senior Member
You're right, I've changed Sheppard to "green". They will do "something" but I highly doubt they finish the entire line as envisioned. Phases are most likely to happen with an extension to Victoria Park being the no brainer as an LRT tunnel was also to be built.
Yeah...they will have to live with Presto but RER might be getting massively downgraded. I could see Lakeshore East & West stay RER, same for Kitchener but not confident for the rest of the network but it would be a mistake to go back on that too
I totally see them dumping the UPX on the TTC
Social programs and green programs are definitely getting the axe here...
Palma
Senior Member
What about letting ttc decide where subways and/or LRT should be and take it out of the hands of city council? As someone else pointed out on here, city council does not tell the police dept how to allocate funds so why is transit different? Oh ya because it's political and can win seats as people constantly buy into what politicians say.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Cancel GO RER, scrap the LRTs, make vague promises to build more transit "if we have extra money" (aka never), and filling in under construction subway tunnels? Let's hope Brown has leaned a thing or two from their past mistakes.