[salsa]

Are you ok?

No, seriously. Are you suffering from a mental disorder?

Personal attacks are unnecessary. But on a related note, if the subway is gonna happen then they should at least put back Lawrence station. It would serve Scarborough Hospital, for those who need it.

 

[nfitz]

Personal attacks are unnecessary. But on a related note, if the subway is gonna happen then they should at least put back Lawrence station. It would serve Scarborough Hospital ...

It is indeed they are literally going under the intersection of a major node like the hospital - probably even building an emergency exit (perhaps it go straight to the emergency ward), but not a station. Ditto for Eglinton/Danforth Road

 

[Rainforest]

There Glenn goes again
https://twitter.com/jpags/status/839134783636647936

I'm sick and tired of this guy's lies. I blame the residents in his ward for constantly voting in this jerkoff, and now he has a platform to hold the entire city hostage with his lies. Are there no sensible politicians in Scarborough?

Before declaring yourself "sick and tired", it helps to check the sources: http://www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/ridership.html

Table on Page 1, second line, is called "Subway boardings, Scarborough Centre Station (passengers/day)". The forecast is 30,800 per day.

People arriving on the subway are not counted into that number, because they do not board the subway at Scarborough Centre Station. But the trips they make are a part of daily ridership.

So, the daily number of subway boardings is 31K. They daily ridership = the number of trips that use the Scarborough Centre Station is about twice that, or 62 K.

Glenn is right.

As of Ms. Pagliaro .. well, I'll give her the benefit of doubt and assume that she just neglected to check the numbers, rather than deliberately misled her followers.

 

[44 North]

I'm praying by some miracle the Relief Line price remains in tact (it won't)

When will we get a cost update on the Relief line anyways?

I may be wrong, but one thing about the RL that seems to always be missing is the wye with Line 2 / Greenwood Yd access. I really don't think I've seen it included in the plans in any tangible way. My fear is that it could be very costly (~$150M?), and may involve large expropriations (Nimby ire?).

And I've been eagerly awaiting the next update. They said "early 2017", so I guess it could be tmr or within the couple of months.

 

[kEiThZ]

I never said it had to be built in stages. In fact I'd prefer it all get built at the same time.

There isn't a single City Councillor proposing that. Ironically, it's the much maligned John Tory who moved up the SMLRT as Eglinton East.

 

[TOareaFan]

Before declaring yourself "sick and tired", it helps to check the sources: http://www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/ridership.html

Table on Page 1, second line, is called "Subway boardings, Scarborough Centre Station (passengers/day)". The forecast is 30,800 per day.

People arriving on the subway are not counted into that number, because they do not board the subway at Scarborough Centre Station. But the trips they make are a part of daily ridership.

So, the daily number of subway boardings is 31K. They daily ridership = the number of trips that use the Scarborough Centre Station is about twice that, or 62 K.

Glenn is right.

As of Ms. Pagliaro .. well, I'll give her the benefit of doubt and assume that she just neglected to check the numbers, rather than deliberately misled her followers.

I made the same mistake the other day confusing/mingling the definitions of boardings and ridership....So Ms. Pagliaro may have made a simple error and since no one asked her to revisit it she saw no need to correct the tweet....oh wait

 

[sixrings]

All good. We'd still be neighbours., But itll be great if Scarborough can make its own decisions without being talk over by the media. That alone is huge.

But then you could start a urbanscarborough page which I can ignore. That alone would be huge

 

[kEiThZ]

Opponents of the Relief line will read from this book when it comes to detailed design and the costs evolution.

This. So this. Every person screaming loudly about the cost of the SSE better be prepared for every fiscal conservative to come screaming about the price tag of the DRL when it comes in.

I would bet just Danforth to Union will be $7 billion when the bill comes in. At that point, especially if the Conservatives are in charge, I expect a full debate on the merits of RER vs. DRL.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

This. So this. Every person screaming loudly about the cost of the SSE better be prepared for every fiscal conservative to come screaming about the price tag of the DRL when it comes in.
I would bet just Danforth to Union will be $7 billion when the bill comes in. At that point, especially if the Conservatives are in charge, I expect a full debate on the merits of RER vs. DRL.

As if they won't raise that issue even if no one screamed about it. Keep debating the full merits of DRL vs RER though, Yonge line is burning up pretty nicely. I mean, didn't we already get that Smarttrack will delay the need for DRL line of talk?

AoD

 

[Rainforest]

I made the same mistake the other day confusing/mingling the definitions of boardings and ridership....So Ms. Pagliaro may have made a simple error and since no one asked her to revisit it she saw no need to correct the tweet....oh wait

View attachment 101213

Perhaps this should be qualified as a mistake of the city staff who prepared the report. They gave the correct number, but used an unfamiliar metrics, and that confused more than a few readers.

It is far more common to count all trips using any given subway station, rather than just boardings.

 

[nfitz]

Before declaring yourself "sick and tired", it helps to check the sources: http://www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/ridership.html

Table on Page 1, second line, is called "Subway boardings, Scarborough Centre Station (passengers/day)". The forecast is 30,800 per day.

People arriving on the subway are not counted into that number, because they do not board the subway at Scarborough Centre Station. But the trips they make are a part of daily ridership.

So, the daily number of subway boardings is 31K. They daily ridership = the number of trips that use the Scarborough Centre Station is about twice that, or 62 K

Yes. Though compare to the 3-stop subway, which was then forecast to be 120,000 or so a day. Boy, the extra cost for that extra 60,000 is no where near 3 billion - though part of this is fixing errors in the earlier analysis.

And compare the 7-stop LRT. That was about 100,000 riders a day. Or Eglinton East, which is now out the window, funding wise - about 46,000 a day.

So 62,000 for subway, compared to 146,000 if we went with the LRT plan. Though we could probably fund Sheppard East LRT in the same envelope (ignoring that it is fully funded). That's. coincidentally another 46,000 a day according to Metrolinx. So 192.000 riders compared to 62,000.

What about number of stops. Subway gives us 1 stop.

We could build Eglinton East, Sheppard East, the 7-stop SRT replacement, and probably add a stop in Malvern Town Centre for all this money. That's 57 stops. What a waste ... someone must hate Scarborough!

 

[nfitz]

Perhaps this should be qualified as a mistake of the city staff who prepared the report. They gave the correct number, but used an unfamiliar metrics, and that confused more than a few readers.

It is far more common to count all trips using any given subway station, rather than just boardings.

That's the whole point. Change the metric to keep people confused, and not realise that the ridership is about half of the old 3-station option.

 

[salsa]

So here's a recap of just some of what was said at executive today, which is only a sample of all the nonsense.



Neethan Shan

• The subway would save his residents an hour off round-trip commute times, which is not based at all in fact or evidence from staff

Glenn De Baeremaeker

• Took issue with this being called a one-stop subway extension.
• Read a list of subway stations that will be less busy than one proposed for STC. "Should they be closed?"
• We shouldn't listen to urban planners, because previous urban planners bungled the design of STC
• "Rosedale subway station. You know, where all the rich white people live"
• On staff cost estimates: "if anything, they're highballing the project numbers"
• Vaughan is getting a subway so Scarborough should
• Called out councillor Carroll for voting against subway, thus not wanting transit for Scarborough

Pasternak

• It's "snarky" for people to refer to SSE as a "one-stop subway"
• "No one calls the work at Union Station a zero-stop subway"
• "Does anyone need a business case before building a hospital or a clean-water source?"

Perruzza

• Used to support the subway, now opposes it
• It "basically breaks the bank" on available funds for Scarborough transit, then mentioned that he supports extending the Sheppard subway. So much for that argument.

Crawford

• Asked if deputant is aware that city planners have recommended SSE as best option (no they didn't)

Shiner

• Subway will make STC the "jewel" of east Toronto

Lee

• Supports the subway
• [insert illiterate babble here] which I do not wish to repeat

Nunziata

• Eglinton Crosstown costs way more than subway that was cancelled (they're totally different projects)
• Opposition to subway has "nothing to do with the cost, they're just opposed to the Scarborough subway"
• Opponents want to cancel it and do nothing in its place

John Tory

• Accused critics of using methods like poisons tipped umbrellas and exploding cigars to stop the SSE
• On ridership potential: "It's not as if there's going to be sort of tumble-weed rolling down the platform"
• "It's time to say to Scarborough you are included in One Toronto." Return of campaign slogans.
• Wants the private sector to pay for the bus terminal
• Asked Scarborough resident to speculate how much time the subway will save him
  • Reporter later asked Tory why he would ask residents to speculate on travel time savings despite what city staff say and have reported
  • His response: I will not discount belief of residents that they might save 20-25 minutes, says their "lived experience" part of the "evidence"

 

[Rainforest]

Yes. Though compare to the 3-stop subway, which was then forecast to be 120,000 or so a day. Boy, the extra cost for that extra 60,000 is no where near 3 billion - though part of this is fixing errors in the earlier analysis.

And compare the 7-stop LRT. That was about 100,000 riders a day. Or Eglinton East, which is now out the window, funding wise - about 46,000 a day.

So 62,000 for subway, compared to 146,000 if we went with the LRT plan. Though we could probably fund Sheppard East LRT in the same envelope (ignoring that it is fully funded). That's. coincidentally another 46,000 a day according to Metrolinx. So 192.000 riders compared to 62,000.

What about number of stops. Subway gives us 1 stop.

We could build Eglinton East, Sheppard East, the 7-stop SRT replacement, and probably add a stop in Malvern Town Centre for all this money. That's 57 stops. What a waste ... someone must hate Scarborough!

I'll just say that 3 light rail lines would not fit into the same funding envelope. SLRT = 1.4 billion (very old estimate), SELRT = 1.2 billion (old estimate too), Eglinton East something like 1.5 billion (recent estimate). That's 4.1 billion already, plus cost escalations.

That said, it is very likely that light rail would take more riders than any subway built for the same cost, as light rail has more local stops.

 

[nfitz]

I'll just say that 3 light rail lines would not fit into the same funding envelope. SLRT = 1.4 billion (very old estimate), SELRT = 1.2 billion (old estimate too), Eglinton East something like 1.5 billion (recent estimate). That's 4.1 billion already, plus cost escalations.

That said, it is very likely that light rail would take more riders than any subway built for the same cost, as light rail has more local stops.

Not that far off - I bet we'll hit $4 billion yet. SELRT is fully funded already though - so we could have 57 stops. And probably a lot sooner than 2027.