[APTA-2048]

The current RT works really well - Kennedy to STC, a 6km trip or so in 10 minutes or less is fantastic.

Careful here. Yes, it's a swift ride from Kennedy to STC, but neglect and poor planning have introduced negatives.

I commuted via the RT for a few years and occasionally for a number of years. I personally love the RT for it's potential, and I feel pride that a made-in-Ontario system has found great success worldwide. But a number of factors have hindered its success right here.

1. We've learned that inexpensive, sparse corridors don't necessarily make for an optimal route.
2. We could have had an extensive suburban light rail rapid transit network. No appetite for ICTS and politics gave us just one route and a Sheppard subway stub.
3. Getting by with the minimum and not investing in upgrades has given us a loud and rickety ride.
4. The subway to RT transfer is a problem for a station built from scratch.

Is a 1 stop extension the solution? No. We need to do better.

 

[syn]

Careful here. Yes, it's a swift ride from Kennedy to STC, but neglect and poor planning have introduced negatives.

I commuted via the RT for a few years and occasionally for a number of years. I personally love the RT for it's potential, and I feel pride that a made-in-Ontario system has found great success worldwide. But a number of factors have hindered its success right here.

1. We've learned that inexpensive, sparse corridors don't necessarily make for an optimal route.
2. We could have had an extensive suburban light rail rapid transit network. No appetite for ICTS and politics gave us just one route and a Sheppard subway stub.
3. Getting by with the minimum and not investing in upgrades has given us a loud and rickety ride.
4. The subway to RT transfer is a problem for a station built from scratch.

Is a 1 stop extension the solution? No. We need to do better.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting it's perfect.

But the rickety ride doesn't bother me at all, certainly not with the speed I can get to STC.

Can I get from King and Spadina to Spadina Station in less than 10 minutes? Nope - and it's only 2.6km.

What about Union to Bathurst? That's still 18 minutes or so despite it being a subway ride.

The RT is woefully underappreciated.

 

[OneCity]

Or, we could ask if anywhere else in the world would ever or has built a 6km one stop subway.

The only two places that have are Moscow (tunnel under federally protected forest) and San Francisco (tunnel under the Bay).

Then, we quickly see the ridiculousness of the plan. This isn't an argument against Scarborough having rapid transit of course, but on implementation.

Right. So let's add stops back in and make it a 6km 2 or 3 stop extension. The cold reality is the transfer LRT dream is not happening, no matter what bs false hope is being painted. Its been beyond dead democratically for good reason for years but sadly in the face of minute Scarborough support that's the only plan the Opposition was ever willing to offer. And any other solid options for transfer free LRT or subway were unfortunately rejected out of political spite and then the opportunism that followed. So McCowan is going ahead

If only one stop is built it's not because Scarborough voted for it to be neutered. It's hardened political gamesmanship to keep it in a state the butt hurt outside councilors can claim justification. The empty lands of Vaughan did not have this crap to deal with internally or externally. And as City we will all pay for this polically, financially, and in practicality long after the SSE if this hardened "my way" politics continues to be the trend from outside councilors.

 

[nfitz]

Just build a GO train spur to SCC off of the Stoufville Line where some of the trains terminate there.

Even if you have to wait longer for it the route would be an actual express service to downtown, no wasting time unnecessary sitting through the Danforth as the train gets increasingly more packed, and no Bloor/Yonge bottlenecks.

And if you wanted to connect with either Line 2 or 5 it’s a single transfer.

This works fine, if most people's destination from SCC was Southcore. That seems unlikely.

 

[OneCity]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting it's perfect.

But the rickety ride doesn't bother me at all, certainly not with the speed I can get to STC.

Can I get from King and Spadina to Spadina Station in less than 10 minutes? Nope - and it's only 2.6km.

What about Union to Bathurst? That's still 18 minutes or so despite it being a subway ride.

The RT is woefully underappreciated.

It had a couple good points. I also always liked the looks of the elevated portion coming in and out of SCC. But there was far more not to admire like the connection of SCC to TTC's main transit artery, the route thru the rail corridor with poor stop locations, the poor visibility outside of the SCC stop, and that's in addition to the technology, maintenance issues. I wouldn't say it was woefully underappreciated.

Careful here. Yes, it's a swift ride from Kennedy to STC, but neglect and poor planning have introduced negatives.

I commuted via the RT for a few years and occasionally for a number of years. I personally love the RT for it's potential, and I feel pride that a made-in-Ontario system has found great success worldwide. But a number of factors have hindered its success right here.

1. We've learned that inexpensive, sparse corridors don't necessarily make for an optimal route.
2. We could have had an extensive suburban light rail rapid transit network. No appetite for ICTS and politics gave us just one route and a Sheppard subway stub.
3. Getting by with the minimum and not investing in upgrades has given us a loud and rickety ride.
4. The subway to RT transfer is a problem for a station built from scratch.

Is a 1 stop extension the solution? No. We need to do better.

Needed to do better. Now we just need to make the best out of whats at hand as going backward could have catastrophic impacts for the City's political future. The McCowan subway albeit the expense option is moving forward and still has a chance to leave a great legacy. But if a 6km tunnel is built without stops in between, then shame on any councilor who is politically entrenched or short sighted to vote against adding stops when it was clear the subway was moving forward. The RT was a big enough disaster for Scarborough residents for decades and in the long term picture adding stops to the inevitable is common sense and can ensure we didn't make mistake #2.

 

[jcam]

It had a couple good points. I also always liked the looks of the elevated portion coming in and out of SCC. But there was far more not to admire like the connection of SCC to TTC's main transit artery, the route thru the rail corridor with poor stop locations, the poor visibility outside of the SCC stop, and that's in addition to the technology, maintenance issues. I wouldn't say it was woefully underappreciated.

Needed to do better. Now we just need to make the best out of whats at hand as going backward could have catastrophic impacts for the City's political future. The McCowan subway albeit the expense option is moving forward and still has a chance to leave a great legacy. But if a 6km tunnel is built without stops in between, then shame on any councilor who is politically entrenched or short sighted to vote against adding stops when it was clear the subway was moving forward. The RT was a big enough disaster for Scarborough residents for decades and in the long term picture adding stops to the inevitable is common sense and can ensure we didn't make mistake #2.

Short-sighted enough? When the City has soooo many needs for scant dollars, you don't throw good money after bad to add two expensive, deep stations to an already overbuilt route. You want to effectively move people from Lawrence and McCowan with a cost effective mode?...add a spur to Eglinton East LRT that goes up Danforth Road. And if they for some reason DID add 2 stations, that would come at the expense of the Eglinton East LRT anyway...and I think we all agree that's a badly needed project.

 

[Rainforest]

Short-sighted enough? When the City has soooo many needs for scant dollars, you don't throw good money after bad to add two expensive, deep stations to an already overbuilt route. You want to effectively move people from Lawrence and McCowan with a cost effective mode?...add a spur to Eglinton East LRT that goes up Danforth Road. And if they for some reason DID add 2 stations, that would come at the expense of the Eglinton East LRT anyway...and I think we all agree that's a badly needed project.

1) You don't need 2 new stations to serve Lawrence and McCowan area; you need one station.

2) Eglinton East LRT is a good idea, and should be built. However, it will cost about $1.5 billion in today's dollars. Do you think just one deep subway station can cost that much, and thus could be built "instead" of Eglinton East LRT?

3) Deep station at Lawrence isn't the only option. It is not evident why a shallow station and a bridge over Highland Creek weren't considered.

Solid technical reasons to reject the bridge option might exist, but they were not communicated to the public. Causes a suspicion (right or wrong) that the project team just didn't want to think out of the box and didn't want to accept any risk.

 

[WislaHD]

add a spur to Eglinton East LRT that goes up Danforth Road.

It would be a pretty funny outcome if we went from a grade-separated LRT to an LRT that actually rips up roads in Scarborough (Just as Robbie said it would!) but eliminates the transfer at Kennedy.

Alas, I do not think Danforth-McCowan is wide enough for LRT. (Unless, maybe, we eliminate some grassy medians)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It would be a pretty funny outcome if we went from a grade-separated LRT to an LRT that actually rips up roads in Scarborough (Just as Robbie said it would!) but eliminates the transfer at Kennedy.

Alas, I do not think Danforth-McCowan is wide enough for LRT. (Unless, maybe, we eliminate some grassy medians)

I've said before, if this were 1954, we'd tear up McCowan Road and replace it with a surface subway and the residents would just have to deal with it because it's 1954 and we really don't care.

 

[WislaHD]

I've said before, if this were 1954, we'd tear up McCowan Road and replace it with a surface subway and the residents would just have to deal with it because it's 1954 and we really don't care.

It is 2017 construction costs.

We could probably pay each homeowner on one side of Danforth-McCowan $10 million a piece, and still save a billion or two.

 

[M II A II R II K]

If we paid off homeowners that much, other streets would be begging to have their streets demolished for a subway to get that payoff.

 

[syn]

It is 2017 construction costs.

We could probably pay each homeowner on one side of Danforth-McCowan $10 million a piece, and still save a billion or two.

That's a great point. Yet another example that puts the absurdity of it all in perspective.

 

[Rainforest]

That's a great point. Yet another example that puts the absurdity of it all in perspective.

If you want to talk about absurdity, remember tunneling under empty land for TYSSE.

 

[OneCity]

What seems odd to me is some think changing to a different plan will save significant money. The cost from starting over, delays and inflation alone will remove most savings and that for any well connected plan that would be accepted. The time for discussion of new plans we 3-4 years ago. Like it or not McCowan is basically a done deal. No reasonable candidate would even consider going backward. Ford had the support of Scarborough when he cancelled TC. The extreme "Left" candidates still call for TC don't have any support here and are only looking for serious trouble. Its not even remotely possible no matter what crap is spewed in the news.

For all the the fair criticism of the single stop subway, the overall packaged direction of Smarttrack, subway to SCC, Ellesmere BRT and seamless Eglinton East LRT is far better than the hacked in Transit City plan. Sheppard needed a rethink with the connection to the stub. If they can get the Lawrence subway stop at the hospital added back it'll be a really fantastic plan for Scarborough and a will transform the way people travel with better access and attractiveness. With or without the Lawrence stop its great.

-direct connection on a seamless East to West line from UTSC to the airport
-direct connection from downtown to SCC
-redundancy from downtown with Smarttrack when delays occur
-SCC to Oshawa BRT running thru SCC

Not perfect but this lays a far better foundation and future for Scarborough than Transit City and is more in line with what the majority of Scarborough voters have consistently rallied around for calls to do better.

 

[BurlOak]

With Montreal's Mayoralty elections today, I just became aware of a proposed "Pink Line" or "La Ligne Diagonale" - that is being proposed by the opposition to the current Mayor. It would run diagonally from the North-East to downtown - and eventually with a West extension.

The cost, which is likely low balled to make it a more feasible campaign promise, is $6B for 29 km and 29 stations.

This got me thinking - if only Toronto could build a grade-separated transit line from the North-East to Downtown. It would be nice if this transit line could have a pre-existing corridor (such as a Gatineau Hydro Corridor and a Don Valley) where the line could run elevated, to lower costs. I think I worked out a cost of $7.0B for 37 km and 29 stations.