[rbt]

These are the demographics most responsive to changes in transit cost, accessibility and availability.

Sure, but what does SSE have to do with transit in Scarborough?

Scarborough is 187.7km². SSE makes ~1km² accessible without taking a bus. If you want to discuss solutions for the lowest quartile income group in Scarborough, you must surely discuss something related to the bus.

 

[OneCity]

Sure, but what does SSE have to do with transit in Scarborough?

Scarborough is 187.7km². SSE makes ~1km² accessible without taking a bus. If you want to discuss solutions for the lowest quartile income group in Scarborough, you must surely discuss something related to the bus.

SSE is just one very important part of a greater network that will continue for decades. Could have been done differently with more stops. But the opposition wanted to play hard ball when the writing was clearly on the wall and change to do better was needed. It's on them if it's only one stop. Scarborough deserves high quality investment, not shakedown of transfers and stops from overly determined and extemely wealthy ward Politicians. Which ironically reside in close proximity to subway stations and other higher order transit options. They have gone too far again to do everything to stop a connected Scarborough Centre, if not worse at this stage. The extreme Left will pay for it at the Mayoral polls as Tory and Ford will run away on transit.

We needed a better plan and its really not that difficult after the subways are added or together to extend LRT or BRT. Seems we are headed in the right direction to better connect Scarborough. The blanket solution was not the answer. A well connected network to existing technologies is and thankfully should be built

 

[Hopkins123]

I just love the notion that we ought to build new competing satellite downtowns at Victoria Park/Eglinton and/or Kennedy/Eglinton to rationalize not expanding the subway system to the pre-existing zoned for growth bustling downtown of Scarborough near McCowan and the 401. Anything to be obstructionist I suppose.

My two cents. You may carry on now.

 

[OneCity]

Working poor on the rise in Scarborough, says think tank researcher

https://www.utoronto.ca/news/bruce-kidd-toronto-needs-take-scarborough-seriously

This guy gets it. City just needs to shut up and invest in a high order across the entire City. Only way it will work.

Having the wealthiest wards and media friends try to dictate the Poltics of Scarborough in the face of opposition is disgraceful. Atleast work with the people to do better or it will get worse for everyone.

 

[rbt]

SSE is just one very important part of a greater network that will continue for decades. Could have been done differently with more stops. But the opposition wanted to play hard ball when the writing was clearly on the wall and change to do better was needed. It's on them if it's only one stop. Scarborough deserves high quality investment, not shakedown of transfers and stops from overly determined and extemely wealthy ward Politicians. Which ironically reside in close proximity to subway stations and other higher order transit options. They have gone too far again to do everything to stop a connected Scarborough Centre, if not worse at this stage. The extreme Left will pay for it at the Mayoral polls as Tory and Ford will run away on transit.[

Hey look, if you guys want to squander the funds then so be it. It's effectively a sunk cost.

Just don't pretend that in 15 years the commute for the typical Scarborough resident will be improved in any way over today; and if you do want to pretend that, then don't complain when it doesn't pan out. Scarborough residents have been caught hook/line/sinker by emotion first planning.

The money on the table is enough to actually improve transit in Scarborough. The current funded plan does nothing for the vast majority of residents.

Emotion first planning is quite popular but not terribly effective.

 

[WislaHD]

Yup. What rbt said exactly.

Nobody is actively fighting against the Scarborough subway plan at this point, except for an isolated Josh Matlow maybe, no matter how many times @OneCity mentions downtown leftist media cabals with anti-Scarborough agendas.

The only thing stopping the Scarborough Subway now are cost escalations, which are going to continue rising as we complete the full environmental assessment of the line. The city literally doesn't have the money and can't take on much more debt, and neither the province or the feds want any part in cost escalations as they can always point back to the municipality to state that "Scarborough was your plan".

One might say that this situation is a consequence of such poor emotion-first planning.

 

[pman]

One of the arguments Coffey makes is that Scarborough shouldn’t be dictated to regarding SSE, and that people who don’t live there shouldn’t have a voice in Scarborough transit decisions - or “dictate the Politics [sic] of Scarborough” in his words. Apparently the fact that most of the tax dollars for SSE come from the rest of us doesn’t give us the right to question the project. By extension, Coffey must agree with the proposition that Scarborough councillors should have no right to vote on any matters outside their borough, including DRL, King transit priority, or the Bloor bike lanes. That might be a trade the rest of us could accept, whatever our views on SSE. It wouldn’t be formal de-amalgamation, but it would be the next best alternative.

 

[syn]

Yup. What rbt said exactly.

Nobody is actively fighting against the Scarborough subway plan at this point, except for an isolated Josh Matlow maybe, no matter how many times @OneCity mentions downtown leftist media cabals with anti-Scarborough agendas.

The only thing stopping the Scarborough Subway now are cost escalations, which are going to continue rising as we complete the full environmental assessment of the line. The city literally doesn't have the money and can't take on much more debt, and neither the province or the feds want any part in cost escalations as they can always point back to the municipality to state that "Scarborough was your plan".

One might say that this situation is a consequence of such poor emotion-first planning.

Urban Toronto has an ignore feature. I've found it works very, very well.

 

[syn]

Internal Metrolinx report found Scarborough subway ‘not a worthwhile use of money’

"In 2013, council scrapped a fully-funded, seven-stop light rail transit (LRT) line to replace the aging Scarborough RT and voted instead to build a three-stop subway that at the time would cost at least $2 billion more, there has never been a comprehensive comparison of the costs and benefits between the two options.
But a secret report obtained by the Star through a freedom of information request provides a glimpse of what that kind of analysis might find: That a subway is “not a worthwhile use of money.”

...

And expected ridership — then estimated at a maximum 11,000 people travelling in the busiest direction at the busiest hour and currently estimated at 7,400 by 2031 — the analysis found, would fall far short of a subway’s maximum capacity of 25,000 and well below that of an LRT’s 15,000-person capacity.

The analysis found the subway could unlock “large scale” development potential, but in order to offset the extra cost (the subway was estimated to cost at least $1 billion more than LRT at the time) $5 billion worth of development would be required. That amount of development, the analysis said, would consist of 20,000 units or 56, 30-storey condo towers.

The analysts didn’t assess whether that scale of development would be feasible.

Experts and development data suggest it’s not.

University of Toronto Scarborough urban geography professor Andre Sorensen said fitting that scale of development within walking distance of the single subway stop planned at Scarborough Town Centre would “simply be impossible.”

“In my view the main problem with the current subway extension option is precisely that it allows much less development potential than the LRT option, while actually reducing the number of people and jobs within walking distance of stations,” said Sorensen, who co-authored a study titled “Choices for Scarborough” that outlined how the LRT was the best transit option for the area.

Other researchers have noted that despite the SRT being rapid transit that runs in its own corridor, very little development has been spurred over the last decade.

Between 2012 and 2017, there have been 853 residential units built in Scarborough Centre, which includes the area immediately around the Scarborough Town Centre. Another 6,200 are in the pipeline or under review.

The analysis concluded: “This initial assessment suggests the volume of benefit likely required to justify the switch to subway construction will not be generated and the switch would not represent good value for money.”

 

[Cobra]

To think that Scarborough-Eglinton merged Crosstown used to be on the table...

 

[gweed123]

To think that Scarborough-Eglinton merged Crosstown used to be on the table...

To this day, that remains my preferred option. Only caveat was that the Golden Mile section of the line be elevated, not tunnelled.

Too late for the Golden Mile part now though. Maybe through a concerted effort to maximize signal timing efficiency than can squeak the capacity under the bar for at-grade LRT though. That and with GO RER/SmartTrack in the picture at Kennedy, that may siphon off enough riders at Kennedy to make the at-grade LRT option feasible.

With the eastern extension (former Scarborough-Malvern LRT) now in the picture as well, perhaps they could short-turn every 2nd LRV on the Scarborough LRT portion at Kennedy, in order to maintain decent headways on the Eglinton mainline.

 

[OneCity]

Internal Metrolinx report found Scarborough subway ‘not a worthwhile use of money’

"In 2013, council scrapped a fully-funded, seven-stop light rail transit (LRT) line to replace the aging Scarborough RT and voted instead to build a three-stop subway that at the time would cost at least $2 billion more, there has never been a comprehensive comparison of the costs and benefits between the two options.
But a secret report obtained by the Star through a freedom of information request provides a glimpse of what that kind of analysis might find: That a subway is “not a worthwhile use of money.”

...

And expected ridership — then estimated at a maximum 11,000 people travelling in the busiest direction at the busiest hour and currently estimated at 7,400 by 2031 — the analysis found, would fall far short of a subway’s maximum capacity of 25,000 and well below that of an LRT’s 15,000-person capacity.

The analysis found the subway could unlock “large scale” development potential, but in order to offset the extra cost (the subway was estimated to cost at least $1 billion more than LRT at the time) $5 billion worth of development would be required. That amount of development, the analysis said, would consist of 20,000 units or 56, 30-storey condo towers.

The analysts didn’t assess whether that scale of development would be feasible.

Experts and development data suggest it’s not.

University of Toronto Scarborough urban geography professor Andre Sorensen said fitting that scale of development within walking distance of the single subway stop planned at Scarborough Town Centre would “simply be impossible.”

“In my view the main problem with the current subway extension option is precisely that it allows much less development potential than the LRT option, while actually reducing the number of people and jobs within walking distance of stations,” said Sorensen, who co-authored a study titled “Choices for Scarborough” that outlined how the LRT was the best transit option for the area.

Other researchers have noted that despite the SRT being rapid transit that runs in its own corridor, very little development has been spurred over the last decade.

Between 2012 and 2017, there have been 853 residential units built in Scarborough Centre, which includes the area immediately around the Scarborough Town Centre. Another 6,200 are in the pipeline or under review.

The analysis concluded: “This initial assessment suggests the volume of benefit likely required to justify the switch to subway construction will not be generated and the switch would not represent good value for money.”

Then the subway should have gone on the LRT corridor, or the LRT should have bene connected to the Crosstown. But the same councillors who oppose todays subway were against anything but Transfer City. Too late now. Going back is not "value for money" moreso given current polarized political division where the rich wards of the City want to dictate to other areas with no compromise. Further debate will not have a happier ending and the politics will spill into other areas.

Also always of note is the McCowan corridor is far better for development if they added stops, and solid value with the hospital. The corridor is far superior to the RT aside from the geological challenges found. The RT corridor was a joke thru industrial lands in addition to then many other unattractive features outside of the City Centre. Pretty simple to understand the low ridership and low development on a disjointed, isolated, standalone, poorly visible, poorly maintained extension.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also always of note is the McCowan corridor is far better for development if they added stops

This was studied, and what you say is absolutely not true. Between LRT or Subway in the SRT corridor, or subway along McCowan, the McCowan option offered the least development potential. This is because it has limited stops, and the stops it does have are in stable residential areas that aren’t subject to development, or adjacent to institutional or public spaces, such as hospitals or parkland.

Outside of the town centre, the McCowan route did not provide much land for redevelopment.

 

[Towered]

Internal Metrolinx report found Scarborough subway ‘not a worthwhile use of money’

"In 2013, council scrapped a fully-funded, seven-stop light rail transit (LRT) line to replace the aging Scarborough RT and voted instead to build a three-stop subway that at the time would cost at least $2 billion more, there has never been a comprehensive comparison of the costs and benefits between the two options.
But a secret report obtained by the Star through a freedom of information request provides a glimpse of what that kind of analysis might find: That a subway is “not a worthwhile use of money.”

...

And expected ridership — then estimated at a maximum 11,000 people travelling in the busiest direction at the busiest hour and currently estimated at 7,400 by 2031 — the analysis found, would fall far short of a subway’s maximum capacity of 25,000 and well below that of an LRT’s 15,000-person capacity.

The analysis found the subway could unlock “large scale” development potential, but in order to offset the extra cost (the subway was estimated to cost at least $1 billion more than LRT at the time) $5 billion worth of development would be required. That amount of development, the analysis said, would consist of 20,000 units or 56, 30-storey condo towers.

The analysts didn’t assess whether that scale of development would be feasible.

Experts and development data suggest it’s not.

University of Toronto Scarborough urban geography professor Andre Sorensen said fitting that scale of development within walking distance of the single subway stop planned at Scarborough Town Centre would “simply be impossible.”

“In my view the main problem with the current subway extension option is precisely that it allows much less development potential than the LRT option, while actually reducing the number of people and jobs within walking distance of stations,” said Sorensen, who co-authored a study titled “Choices for Scarborough” that outlined how the LRT was the best transit option for the area.

Other researchers have noted that despite the SRT being rapid transit that runs in its own corridor, very little development has been spurred over the last decade.

Between 2012 and 2017, there have been 853 residential units built in Scarborough Centre, which includes the area immediately around the Scarborough Town Centre. Another 6,200 are in the pipeline or under review.

The analysis concluded: “This initial assessment suggests the volume of benefit likely required to justify the switch to subway construction will not be generated and the switch would not represent good value for money.”

It's excellent that the Star keeps digging deeper to enable this insanely wasteful proposal to get re-evaluated and hopefully cancelled.

 

[Cobra]

It's excellent that the Star keeps digging deeper to enable this insanely wasteful proposal to get re-evaluated and hopefully cancelled.

Too bad they didn't work as hard to question council decision to bury the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown nor pointing out the Neptis report that said that the ridership on Eglinton was underestimated while Skytrain was ignore as an option.

The Star also have their own agenda, let's not be naive here