[BurlOak]

To think that Scarborough-Eglinton merged Crosstown used to be on the table...

SkyTrain > LRT > Subway
---Based on 2006 report, SkyTrain is better than transfer LRT is better than Subway.

Scar-Eg. LRT > LRT
---Based on 2012 report, connected Eglinton-Scarborough LRT better than transfer LRT.

Based on government's own studies, the 2 worst options are the B-D extension and the transfer LRT.

The only things left to study were whether;

• the connected Scarborough-Eglinton line should have been SkyTrain or LRT.
• the connected Scarborough-Eglinton line could have had cost lowered to retain the benefits (by maintaining grade-separation), but reduce the costs (i.e. by elevation).
• the Scarborough line could have found another continuous route to Yonge (i.e. Gatineau Hydro corridor and Don Valley to downtown).

I think we can agree that there is not point studying an option that has been proven inferior 2 times. If the proposal is to analyse the best options and see if they can be improved - then maybe I will listen.

 

[BurlOak]

What is the Star's agenda, exactly??

Why would the Toronto Star, as an organization, be against a subway extension that made sense?

Are there any facts that The Star has cited that are in dispute?

Agenda
Oppose any transit plan with ties to Ford.
Support any transit plan with ties to Miller.

 

[Rainforest]

The Star definitely has some hidden agenda. It is hard to say what motivates them. But the persistence of their attacks against SSE definitely contrasts with little or no attention to flaws and/or debatable points of many other transit expansion projects currently on the table.

 

[Rainforest]

To those who think that the combined and fully grade-separated EC - Scarborough LRT would be a better deal than SSE, I'd like to point out the following:

1) EC - Scarborough LRT would only be cheaper if the Golden Mile section, between Don Mills and Kennedy, could be built as elevated. If it had to be tunneled, then the total length of new tunnel would be comparable to SSE, and thus the cost would be similar.

However, there would be some opposition to the elevated line in the residential areas of Eglinton East.

2) Whether elevated or tunneled, EC - Scarborough LRT would shift a lot of riders to Eglinton, and push the capacity limits on both Eglinton approaching Yonge, and Yonge south of Eglinton.

3) Perception matters, like it or not. The City Council was able to pass a dedicated transit tax for SSE, thus not affecting other projects. it would be a lot harder to get a dedicated transit tax for LRT (even if LRT is a fast as subway; the voters are just less familiar with it).

RoFo's way of building the fully grade-separated EC - Scarborough LRT was sacrificing Finch LRT and SELRT.

With SSE, Finch LRT remains fully funded and is close to the construction start. SELRT technically remains funded as well, it is in limbo for reasons other than SSE.

 

[syn]

Agenda
Oppose any transit plan with ties to Ford.
Support any transit plan with ties to Miller.

As it's been pointed out earlier, that's BS.

Just because they haven't bought into the silly 'Scarborough deserves a subway' narrative doesn't mean they have an irrational bias.

It's funny - I'm still waiting for someone to point out the actual flaws in the article that was posted, but instead we get the usual conspiracy theory nonsense.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As it's been pointed out earlier, that's BS.

Just because they haven't bought into the silly 'Scarborough deserves a subway' narrative doesn't mean they have an irrational bias.

It's funny - I'm still waiting for someone to pint out the actual flaws in the article that was posted, but instead we get the usual conspiracy theory nonsense.

If you can’t argue against arguments presented, then discredit the source.

 

[OneCity]

If you can’t argue against arguments presented, then discredit the source.

Its all very Political. Pretty straight forward the Star is Left wing (supporting the Downtown Left), the Sun is very Right wing.

The source has little credibility and have paid huge $$ to vigorously focus and promote the old transfer LRT plan in the face of it really not being well received extensively in Scarborough. They discuss no other options but the old Miller LRT plan. Nothing. And yet we saw minimal effort or $$ if any put toward covering the subway to the empty lands of Vaughan. Wasn't part of the agenda

Its ok you agree with them. But make no mistake its all Politics, they are just providing coverage promoting their agenda and are not very balanced. Those that don't agree with their transfer LRT agenda, you are not "evidence based". Ok, sure doesn't sounds like an open credible source.

Bottom line residents from Scarborough wanted better than the Political transfer LRT plan. 7 years still waiting for the Star to cover the real story instead of promoting their own political plan.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Star is Left wing (supporting the Downtown Left), the Sun is Right wing. The source has little credibility and have paid huge $$ to vigorously focus and promote the old transfer LRT plan in the face of it really not being well received extensively in Scarborough. Yet minimal effort was put toward covering the subway to the empty lands of Vaughan.

Is ok you agree. But they are just providing coverage promoting an agenda and they are not very balanced or credible.

All this consternation over The Star is moot. The source isn’t The Star, the source is Metrolinx. The Star is simply relaying Metrolinx’s report. There’s even a direct link to the Metrolinx report, if you don’t want the Star’s spin. If you want to discredit the source, start with Metrolinx.

 

[BurlOak]

All this consternation over The Star is moot. The source isn’t The Star, the source is Metrolinx. The Star is simply relaying Metrolinx’s report. There’s even a direct link to the Metrolinx report, if you don’t want the Star’s spin. If you want to discredit the source, start with Metrolinx.

How much coverage did the Star give to the Metrolinx report that stated that the combined Eglinton-Scarborough LRT was the best?

 

[BurlOak]

To those who think that the combined and fully grade-separated EC - Scarborough LRT would be a better deal than SSE, I'd like to point out the following:

1) EC - Scarborough LRT would only be cheaper if the Golden Mile section, between Don Mills and Kennedy, could be built as elevated. If it had to be tunneled, then the total length of new tunnel would be comparable to SSE, and thus the cost would be similar.

However, there would be some opposition to the elevated line in the residential areas of Eglinton East.

2) Whether elevated or tunneled, EC - Scarborough LRT would shift a lot of riders to Eglinton, and push the capacity limits on both Eglinton approaching Yonge, and Yonge south of Eglinton.

3) Perception matters, like it or not. The City Council was able to pass a dedicated transit tax for SSE, thus not affecting other projects. it would be a lot harder to get a dedicated transit tax for LRT (even if LRT is a fast as subway; the voters are just less familiar with it).

RoFo's way of building the fully grade-separated EC - Scarborough LRT was sacrificing Finch LRT and SELRT.

With SSE, Finch LRT remains fully funded and is close to the construction start. SELRT technically remains funded as well, it is in limbo for reasons other than SSE.

Essentially, with the combined Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown, there would have been increased pressure to build the DRL to Science Centre.

So essentially, instead of working with the Ford idea, the Ford haters traded a DRL to Science Centre for the FWLRT.

 

[Rainforest]

All this consternation over The Star is moot. The source isn’t The Star, the source is Metrolinx. The Star is simply relaying Metrolinx’s report. There’s even a direct link to the Metrolinx report, if you don’t want the Star’s spin. If you want to discredit the source, start with Metrolinx.

I think there are two separate questions here:

1) Is The Star biased? I believe they are biased, and that belief is mainly based on the fact they pay so much negative attention to SSE while mostly ignoring flaws/issues in other transit projects.

2) Is the underlying Metrolinx report credible? I consider it credible, unless proven otherwise. I believe that the voters and their elected representatives should be making the final decisions, but the Metrolinx experts can and should inform them on all pros and cons based on their knowledge.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How much coverage did the Star give to the Metrolinx report that stated that the combined Eglinton-Scarborough LRT was the best?

It’s as if everything I just said went in one ear and out the other. Go reread my last post and that’s my answer.

 

[Rainforest]

Essentially, with the combined Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown, there would have been increased pressure to build the DRL to Science Centre.

In a way, yes. But the question is whether that added pressure would be enough to meaningfully accelerate the DRL.

So essentially, instead of working with the Ford idea, the Ford haters traded a DRL to Science Centre for the FWLRT.

That's a massive overstatement.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think there are two separate questions here:

1) Is The Star biased? I believe they are biased, and that belief is mainly based on the fact they pay so much negative attention to SSE while mostly ignoring flaws/issues in other transit projects.

Sure. But that has no relevance on the content of the report.

2) Is the underlying Metrolinx report credible? I consider it credible, unless proven otherwise. I believe that the voter and their elected representatives should be making the final decisions, but the Metrolinx experts can and should inform them on all pros and cons based on their knowledge.

All the internal Metrolinx reports I’ve seen have been credible. It’s the external reports released to the public that’s the problem: at that point the government whitewashed and suppressed any dissenting information, far beyond the point of objectivity. Given that the government hasn’t had the opportunity to corrupt this report, I’d say it’s credible.

Mind that the government and Metrolinx would have no motivation to disparage the SSE, which makes this report critucal of the project even more credible.

 

[BurlOak]

It’s as if everything I just said went in one ear and out the other. Go reread my last post and that’s my answer.

Which post would that be? The one where you say that the Star was just covering a Metrolinx report.

And then I asked why they didn't cover the other Metrolinx report.

I don't really understand your answer.

All the internal Metrolinx reports I’ve seen have been credible. It’s the external reports released to the public that’s the problem: at that point the government whitewashed and suppressed any dissenting information, far beyond the point of objectivity. Given that the government hasn’t had the opportunity to corrupt this report, I’d say it’s credible.

Mind that the government and Metrolinx would have no motivation to disparage the SSE, which makes this report critucal of the project even more credible.

Since the report that stated that the Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown was best was also a report that was only released to the public after a FOI, I presume you would say it is equally credible.

Which goes back to what I said a few posts ago.

Connected Eglinton-Scarborough > Transfer LRT > SSE

And both reports (this from 2013 and the one I referenced from 2012) confirm this statement.