[Rainforest]

All the internal Metrolinx reports I’ve seen have been credible. It’s the external reports released to the public that’s the problem: at that point the government whitewashed and suppressed any dissenting information, far beyond the point of objectivity. Given that the government hasn’t had the opportunity to corrupt this report, I’d say it’s credible.

Mind that the government and Metrolinx would have no motivation to disparage the SSE, which makes this report critucal of the project even more credible.

I agree on this point. All transit-related reports funded by the public money should be released to the public, and should not be tampered with.

The government has the authority to act against recommendations given by the experts, and outline the reasons for doing so. But the government should never withhold or alter any report just to make its position easier to defend.

 

[Hopkins123]

Essentially, with the combined Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown, there would have been increased pressure to build the DRL to Science Centre.

So essentially, instead of working with the Ford idea, the Ford haters traded a DRL to Science Centre for the FWLRT.

To think, all that's been sacrificed at the altar of boostering light rail lines in the suburbs: Grade-separated Crosstown, Sheppard Subway, DRL to Science Centre, SSE in peril... all for an LRT along Finch West that nobody asked for and the affected Ward councillors (1, 7) do not even want.

Please don't talk about SSE being a waste of money in the same breath as promoting LRT in a corridor where not even express buses route. And yes, I mean west of Dufferin. Where's the 36E at if things are do dire in that neck of the woods? Meanwhile the SRT is bursting at the seams and along with three competing routes (21, 43B, 131E) all are shuttling people back and forth between the Town Centre and the subway. To say there's no demand to link the two points continuously without a transfer is a bold face lie and denial of reality.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Essentially, with the combined Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown, there would have been increased pressure to build the DRL to Science Centre.

To think, all that's been sacrificed at the altar of boostering light rail lines in the suburbs: Grade-separated Crosstown, Sheppard Subway, DRL to Science Centre, SSE in peril... all for an LRT along Finch West

So, you're suggesting that City Council should have intentionally sabotaged the Yonge Line, in order to increase political pressure to build the DRL to the Science Centre? Really? No remotely responsible government would sabotage themselves in the hope that they might get a better solution in the future.

And suppose the DRL didn't get funding. What do you suppose Toronto would do then? Live with a screwed up Yonge Line for a decade or more, harming our city and economy more than it already is, leaving tens of thousands of people without a viable commute option? This is an acceptable outcome to you?

 

[LNahid2000]

Meanwhile the SRT is bursting at the seams and along with three competing routes (21, 43B, 131E) all are shuttling people back and forth between the Town Centre and the subway. To say there's no demand to link the two points continuously without a transfer is a bold face lie and denial of reality.

lol bursting at the seams? The only reason it seems busy is because the TTC never bought enough trains to run the line more frequently. Trains only run every 5 minutes at rush hour. The line would feel pretty empty if it ran at Skytrain like frequencies, so a subway isn't justified.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Essentially, with the combined Eglinton Scarborough Crosstown, there would have been increased pressure to build the DRL to Science Centre.

So essentially, instead of working with the Ford idea, the Ford haters traded a DRL to Science Centre for the FWLRT.

To think, all that's been sacrificed at the altar of boostering light rail lines in the suburbs: Grade-separated Crosstown, Sheppard Subway, DRL to Science Centre, SSE in peril... all for an LRT along Finch West that nobody asked for and the affected Ward councillors (1, 7) do not even want.

So, you're suggesting that City Council should have intentionally sabotaged the Yonge Line, in order to increase political pressure to build the DRL to the Science Centre? Really? No remotely responsible government would sabotage themselves in the hope that they might get a better solution in the future.

And suppose the DRL didn't get funding. What do you suppose Toronto would do then? Live with a screwed up Yonge Line for a decade or more, harming our city and economy more than it already is, leaving tens of thousands of people without a viable commute option? This is an acceptable outcome to you?

This right here is essentially the transit version of "lets burn down the house in the hopes that the insurance money will buy us a nicer place". Insanity.

 

[BurlOak]

I agree on this point. All transit-related reports funded by the public money should be released to the public, and should not be tampered with.

The government has the authority to act against recommendations given by the experts, and outline the reasons for doing so. But the government should never withhold or alter any report just to make its position easier to defend.

Remember why these reports were hidden.

In 2012, the Liberals withheld the report because Ford was starting to implode and they didn't want to release any information to show he was right.
In 2013, the Liberals withheld the report (the latest one released) because they wanted to win a by-election in Mitzi Hunter's riding.
In 2014, the Liberals continued to hide the report so they could campaign for the subway in the General election.

And this Liberal government created Metrolinx to take politics out of transit planning.

 

[syn]

The new updated SSE supporter 'alternative facts' list:

- Rapid Transit that gets you from Kennedy to STC (over 6km) in less than 10 minutes is bad because it involves a staircase
- Election results are only about SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS, but polls based on scientific principles aren't reliable
- Scarborough is paying for downtown transit expansion
- McCowan is the Yonge Street of Scarborough
- There may be elderly ladies with canes going downtown, therefore we must spend billions of dollars to ensure they don't have to use an LRT, even if it means a much longer bus ride
- Density doesn't matter
- Cost doesn't matter
- The Star is biased, facts are irrelevant
- Nobody wants the Finch LRT
- The RT is 'bursting at the seams' because one can only have an entire car to themselves outside of rush hour

 

[Voltz]

The new updated SSE supporter 'alternative facts' list:

- Rapid Transit that gets you from Kennedy to STC (over 6km) in less than 10 minutes is bad because it involves a staircase
- Election results are only about SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS, but polls based on scientific principles aren't reliable
- Scarborough is paying for downtown transit expansion
- McCowan is the Yonge Street of Scarborough
- There may be elderly ladies with canes going downtown, therefore we must spend billions of dollars to ensure they don't have to use an LRT, even if it means a much longer bus ride
- Density doesn't matter
- Cost doesn't matter
- The Star is biased, facts are irrelevant
- Nobody wants the Finch LRT
- The RT is 'bursting at the seams' because one can only have an entire car to themselves outside of rush hour

Reading some of the posts from the subway fanatics makes me think that a portal to an alternate universe must have sprung a leak.

 

[Rainforest]

Fresh 'alternative facts' list from 'syn':

- The whole Scarborough Transit debate is about a staircase.

- In a constitutional democracy, election results don't matter.

- Scarborough is a poor cousin in this city.

- Travel time doesn't matter.

- Riders' convenience doesn't matter.

- Every SSE supporter must be against Finch LRT. The fact that Finch LRT has its own funding should be ignored, it doesn’t fit into syn's narrative.

- RT must be severely underused, syn has been alone in the car a couple of times during late evening. The fact that TTC has to run parallel express bus between Kennedy and STC during the rush hours is irrelevant.

 

[OneCity]

Why is it acceptable to condescendingly box people who wanted a better transit plan for Scarborough with insults? There is a clear complex problem which has been identified and some want to make small minded insults towards people who want to see better being done.

The fact Scarborough has been forced to watch a 1 stop subway being debated against a transfer LRT plan which isolates its City Centre at this stage is a disgrace and not a reflection of any voter in Scarborough who wanted better than the blanket transfer plan. Even just a compromise to something fractionally similar to what was build in North York throughout the decades or recently to subway induced Vaughan Metro Centre. Some people are pretty low to throw stones at those that want a better integrated plan for SCC with demeaning insults. Its disgusting how this debate has been soured into such garbage plans which doesn't represent the people or deal with what is a clear issue. So many councilors refused to even acknowledge the calls for a better plan

Whether Tory wins the next election or not, the nauseating fight to push for the transfer before SCC and keep stops out of the subway by the Opposition will only help another Mayoral candidate who will promote an integrated plan of somekind with stops. Its ironic that they still don't see this. Dumbing it down to a one stop subway vs. transfer LRT debate really doesn't help the anti subway crowd in the end as they seem to believe. And will surely attack anyone tabling an integrated plan to the heart of a massive neglected suburb. They are doing it to themselves and the City...What a joke

 

[WislaHD]

Why is it acceptable to condescendingly box people who wanted a better transit plan for Scarborough with insults?

The validity of this statement would be enhanced if the aforementioned people genuinely wanted a better transit plan and accepted actual facts and transit planning theory and didn't decide to spend the majority of this thread putting downtown elitist leftist Toronto Star media into a box.

Beyond the (legitimate) transfer question, this debate has become entirely about Scarborough's feelings or what Scarborough 'deserves'. We have established at this point that the Scarborough subway price-tag could spirl out of control to the $10 billion mark and its advocates would still be seriously advocating that we pursue it.

Anyway, it is difficult to take a pointing of fingers seriously. Those who live in glass houses should not being throwing stones.

 

[OneCity]

The validity of this statement would be enhanced if the aforementioned people genuinely wanted a better transit plan and accepted actual facts and transit planning theory and didn't decide to spend the majority of this thread putting downtown elitist leftist Toronto Star media into a box.

Beyond the (legitimate) transfer question, this debate has become entirely about Scarborough's feelings or what Scarborough 'deserves'. We have established at this point that the Scarborough subway price-tag could spirl out of control to the $10 billion mark and its advocates would still be seriously advocating that we pursue it.

Anyway, it is difficult to take a pointing of fingers seriously. Those who live in glass houses should not being throwing stones.

Do you think Scarborough deserves this debate? As I said its a joke whats going on and a shame. 100% Scarborough "deserves" better. This debate has only made it more apparent of the current issue within the City to the residents here.

Certainly lots of finger pointing to go around. But who is working towards a solution to the problem? Id suggest the Opposition could be creating a possible problem for themselves come election time once again.

 

[WislaHD]

Do you think Scarborough deserves this debate?

Toronto deserves transit planning that is conducted by transit planners and not politicians.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why is it acceptable to condescendingly box people who wanted a better transit plan for Scarborough with insults?

Perhaps you should ask yourself that question? After all, you’re the one here that regularly insinuates that anyone that opposes a single rapid transit stop in Scarborough either has an “anti-Scarborough” bias, or is part of some grand conspiracy to screw Scarborough over.

 

[UD2]

I think the people of Scarborough is partly at blame here. One has to think hard about what they demand for because if one’s demands are too far fetched from what’s reasonable, then nothing usually gets done.

1. Scarborough demanded a subway extension of line 4 when a LRT could have done the job. It fought hard to kill the LRT and is now getting nothing.

2. Scarborough demanded a subway extension of line 2 while either a renovation of the existing system or an LRT could’ve done the job. They are still fighting.

And people need to stop pitching the equal treatment against population density. Subways are about density and should only be used when there are no alternatives.