[syn]

Then propose a subway extension to Sherway then. Stop acting as if throwing Scarborough a bone after decades of neglect (one-quarter of the total population and one-third of the total land area of the 416 yet only comprises 10% of the rapid transit network) is somehow depriving other areas from getting their rapid transit upgrades.

Just because Scarborough has been proactive in lobbying for a subway, doesn't mean we ought to fault them for it. Elections matter, and while those are not usually single-issue affairs, a sizeable plurality, if not majority, did in fact vote based on the subway pledges of several politicians.

You missed the point, entirely.

Scarborough hasn't been neglected for decades. The RT is the best piece of suburban infrastructure in the GTA. If I want to get to Sherway, I don't have a direct line there that takes less than 10 minutes.

If I'm at Finch, I don't any Rapid Transit either. I have to get on a bus.

There are other areas with needs as great, if not greater than Scarborough.

The stat you posted is exactly why it's crazy to waste billions on a one stop subway extension. Scarborough doesn't have the density to support one, nor is there a need for one.

This article by Metro outlines property tax contributions by Ward:

http://www.metronews.ca/news/toront...d-breakdown-of-property-taxes-in-toronto.html

There are three downtown wards that generate 25% of all tax revenue while only taking up 3% of the city's land mass.

Scarborough generates the lowest amount of property tax revenue in Toronto - 15% of city's total.

This is why most SSE supporters in this thread lack any kind of perspective. With less than a quarter of the city's population and only 15% of the city's revenue there are demands for billions upon billions of transit investment, for infrastructure Scarborough won't have the ability to use to full capacity for decades, all while other high priority areas of the city have to wait.

Worst of all, it doesn't actually address transit needs within Scarborough. It's essentially the worst plan in almost every single way.

 

[OneCity]

If it was REALLY about a transfer, there are more cost effective ways to fix the Kennedy terminus than spend an extra $2B on switching to a subway (and losing multiple stops in the process).

Agreed 100%. Although going back might not yield the savings in reality with inflation ,realistic procurement durations, and of course our political reality. Ford and McGuinty tried to work something with LRT and removing the transfer. It was denied.

The McCowan corridor is optimal for long term growth only If stops are being added at Eglinton and/or Lawrence and or Sheppard. Unfortunately there is low appetite for spending in Scarborough for many good and bad political reasons. The McCowan corridor was found to be problematic geologically certainly deserved to be put up more vigorously against the RT corridor or a more elevated options. Unfortunately Smarttrack got In the way of those and other issues like RT shutdown and Eglinton East LRT connection suddenly became bigger concerns. Now more time has past and those challenges were never a reason to justify the old transfer plan. If we are going back (which I doubt as Ford and Tory likely have stronghold and the opposition has only become more divisive in some aspects) it would be some type of plan which removes the transfer. Another reason were not going back is most of the options were already denied for political reasons.

 

[soupdogg8]

I know that the subway can not be built in the entire rt corridor because of turning radius at midland and ellesmere, and also because of time saving measures. However could it not turn into the hydro corridor just south of lawrence? It could turn back north under mccowan. This route could have stops at lawrence/midland and lawrence/mccowan or just at brimley/lawrence. I believe this route would save a lot of money by saving on tunneling and also still be almost as fast as going under mccowan. I've provided a map. Let me know what you think.

 

[jcam]

In my old life when we built the TBMs for Crosstown, there was a plan to actually send 2 of the 4 machines to Sheppard LRT first, with the intention of quickly digging new tunnels from Don Mills under the 404, then shift the TBMs down to Eglinton on the shorter tunnel section east of Yonge.

This is what would've enabled the planned level transfer (similar to the UPX and LINK at Pearson) between subway and LRT....something that should've been proposed at Kennedy

Agreed 100%. Although going back might not yield the savings in reality with inflation ,realistic procurement durations, and of course politics. Ford and McGuinty tried to work something with LRT. It was denied.

The McCowan corridor is optimal for long term growth only If stops are being added at Eglinton and/or Lawrence and or Sheppard. Unfortunately there is low appetite for spending in Scarborough for many good and bad political reasons. The McCowan corridor was found to be problematic geologically certainly deserved to be put up more vigorously against the RT corridor or a more elevated options. Unfortunately Smarttrack got In the way of those and other issues like RT shutdown and Eglinton East LRT connection became bigger concerns. Now more time has past and those challenges were never a reason to justify the old transfer plan. If we are going back (which I doubt as Ford and Tory likely have stronghold and the opposition has only become more divisive in some aspects) it would be some type of plan which removes the transfer. Another reason were not going back is most of the options were already denied for political reasons.

 

[syn]

I know that the subway can not be built in the entire rt corridor because of turning radius at midland and ellesmere, and also because of time saving measures. However could it not turn into the hydro corridor just south of lawrence? It could turn back north under mccowan. This route could have stops at lawrence/midland and lawrence/mccowan or just at brimley/lawrence. I believe this route would save a lot of money by saving on tunneling and also still be almost as fast as going under mccowan. I've provided a map. Let me know what you think.

I assume the dotted parts of the line are above ground, solid is tunneled?

 

[Cobra]

Rob Ford's plan would've resulted in the entire transit budget being used, meaning no funds for any other projects like the Finch LRT.

Sure but this is why Toronto will never truly be world class. The constant "half assing" of transit projects. There were merits to handle Eglinton Scarborough the right way from the get go. It solves the Scarborough file and address Eglinton Avenue by giving it the proper fully grade separated line that it should have had all along.

Finch West? How about we start by putting an Express branch and some paint on the road for reserved lanes and implement an LRT later?
That billion that Toronto will commit to the SSE projects through taxes could have been raised instead for Finch LRT while the province would have paid 100% of the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown. Do you see that it was politics from a few egotistical scumbags that messed everything up and not the people?

If the plan is as accepted as you suggest, then why not revive it? Why not put funding into that project instead of building a silly extension because 'we deserve it'?

Don't ask me, ask those LRT fanatics at city hall why they are still fighting for Miller's Transit City instead of seeking a compromise by reviving Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown. Like it or not, "the subway side" tried compromising before hardening their pro-subway position. I mean, for godsake Rob freakin Ford was ok with LRT in Scarborough as long as it was merged to a fully grade separated Eglinton. Now be honest and recognize that the LRT side inflexibility played a much heavier hand in bringing us here today. Let's not forget the shameful opportunistic Ontario Liberals who played even dirtier just to win a Scarborough seat.

Your constant complaining about the SRT shows a complete lack of perspective. Kennedy to STC in less than 10 minutes is amazing.

Yeah and all those cities around the world all lack perspective because they:

• didn't plug an SRT at the end of the line (Kennedy) creating an unnecessary transfer going in the same direction
  
• didn't built a station that ought to get whoever designed it his/her architecture diploma burned
• just continued with the same technology (above ground wherever possible)

Subway in Scarborough isn't the problem, it's digging costly tunnels in low density areas that is the problem. We did it again with the TYSSE and were about to do it again with the SSE and YNSE. Who the F is leading us?

My point is line 2 should have been a elevated or at grade (SRT corridor) extension from the get go. Building transit the right way from the very beginning saves you billions down the road.

If I'm at Kipling and I want to get to Sherway, do you know what my options are? I'll let you figure that one out.

Don't be lazy then, write to your MP, MPP and city councillor. No need to be that angry at Scarborough because some citizens are exercising their democratic rights that you seem too lazy to do yourself, hence you being here acting all angry against a huge chunk of this city population. You want a western extension? Man up and do something about it.

 

[soupdogg8]

I assume the dotted parts of the line are above ground, solid is tunneled?

Yes. Same for the LRTs.

 

[OneCity]

I know that the subway can not be built in the entire rt corridor because of turning radius at midland and ellesmere, and also because of time saving measures. However could it not turn into the hydro corridor just south of lawrence? It could turn back north under mccowan. This route could have stops at lawrence/midland and lawrence/mccowan or just at brimley/lawrence. I believe this route would save a lot of money by saving on tunneling and also still be almost as fast as going under mccowan. I've provided a map. Let me know what you think.

This certainly would be ideal if allowable as it leaves little excuse for the stop at the Hospital to be removed and since the Eglinton stop is clearly not coming back this make sense to bypass the Danforth bend. Not sure about the logistics with Hydro as I believe Ive read others mention some concerns using this corridor an I imagine it would have been considered. Barring any relocation work from Hydro it seems straight forward. This can be build with or without Smarttrack minus the midland stop.

 

[Cobra]

To continue my train of thought, I would have brought subways to Scarborough but I would have been unbelievably inflexible on the elevated part except for Scarborough Centre station.
East of Kennedy=Elevated on Eglinton and McCowan. Take it or leave it. Wanna bet they take it?

 

[syn]

Sure but this is why Toronto will never truly be world class. The constant "half assing" of transit projects. There were merits to handle Eglinton Scarborough the right way from the get go. It solves the Scarborough file and address Eglinton Avenue by giving it the proper fully grade separated line that it should have had all along.

Finch West? How about we start by putting an Express branch and some paint on the road for reserved lanes and implement an LRT later?
That billion that Toronto will commit to the SSE projects through taxes could have been raised instead for Finch LRT while the province would have paid 100% of the merged Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown. Do you see that it was politics from a few egotistical scumbags that messed everything up and not the people?

So you want a ridiculous SSE that's completely unnecessary, but a Finch LRT should have to wait? This is why it's hard to the SSE supporters in this thread seriously. There's a complete lack of perspective and understanding.

In case you haven't been paying attention, the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown is part of Tory's transit plan.

The problem is that there's no money for it. The cash that was supposed to be saved (and invested in the LRT) going from three stops to one on the SSE is gone. Instead of cancelling the SSE and investing in the LRT, he and other local politicians are insistent on funding the SSE no matter what the cost for political purposes.

Cancelling the SSE would enable funds for the Crosstown East along with another LRT line that could serve residents in Scarborough. Instead we're getting a 6km elephant.

An LRT is not 'half-assed' transit. It's great infrastructure for specific environments. Scarborough's density and ridership makes some form of LRTs a great solution.

The Sheppard Line has demonstrated that building subways where the density and ridership isn't there to support it is a very bad idea.

Building the SSE is like renting a moving truck to pickup a chair from Ikea. It's completely unnecessary when you can just use your minivan that does the job perfectly.

Unfortunately you're not providing reason, it's all ego based 'we deserve a subway' rhetoric.

 

[syn]

Yes. Same for the LRTs.

Good thought put into it, but the tunneled portion would still be unbelievably expensive.

At this point to hit the current budget it probably has to be entirely above ground.

 

[WislaHD]

Right, because downtowners holding out for a subway to replace the Pape bus which carries like 7000 passengers daily aren't entitled.

To continue my train of thought, I would have brought subways to Scarborough but I would have been unbelievably inflexible on the elevated part except for Scarborough Centre station.
East of Kennedy=Elevated on Eglinton and McCowan. Take it or leave it. Wanna bet they take it?

Me too. Subway is fine, if Scarborough accepts elevated transit like all world class transit systems have.

But, then we reveal the real reason for the subway rhetoric in Scarborough. Underground means roads are not ripped up, and that is the crux of it. (Oh ho ho, they should take a look at Eglinton!)

 

[OneCity]

Me too. Subway is fine, if Scarborough accepts elevated transit like all world class transit systems have.

But, then we reveal the real reason for the subway rhetoric in Scarborough. Underground means roads are not ripped up, and that is the crux of it. (Oh ho ho, they should take a look at Eglinton!)

Too bad no one on the Left Opposition tested the waters. They had all the notice and time needed. Feet in the mud on the old transfer plan, so well never know. Just eliminating the transfer on the RT with either LRT or Subway would have been reasonably supported IMO. Although the corridor was never optimal, removal of the transfer alone is a massive improvement in connecting SCC, keeping some stops and allowing the Sheppard loop to connect. Compromise was available, and passing up this opportunity I believe has caused the Left Mayoral candidates even the opportunity to get out of irrelevance quicker. Well never know if reaching out on such a big issue could have had any impact.

 

[Cobra]

So you want a ridiculous SSE that's completely unnecessary, but a Finch LRT should have to wait? This is why it's hard to the SSE supporters in this thread seriously. There's a completely lack of perspective.

You can't read can't you!

In case you haven't been paying attention, the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown is part of Tory's transit plan.

huh?

The problem is that there's no money for it. The cash that was supposed to be saved (and invested in the LRT) going from three stops to one on the SSE is gone. Instead of cancelling the SSE and investing in the LRT, he and other local politicians are insistent on funding the SSE no matter what the cost for political purposes.

False, lack of political will at all level who can't see past the next election is the responsible. The 9th or 10th economy on the planet being broke is the greatest lie told to Canadians

Cancelling the SSE would enable funds for the Crosstown East along with another LRT line that could serve residents in Scarborough. Instead we're getting a 6km elephant.

Because city council rejected Scarborough-Eglinton crosstown and Scarborough rejected the Transit City plan

An LRT is not 'half-assed' transit. It's great infrastructure for specific environments. Scarborough's density and ridership makes some form of LRTs a great solution.

I agree, so why wouldn't the pro-LRT get along with the Scarborough-Eglinton crosstown while they had the chance?

The Sheppard Line has demonstrated that building subways where the density and ridership isn't there to support it is a very bad idea.

Subways isn't the problem, it's digging in those areas that is. Paris, London, Chicago, New York and others have subways in similar areas as Scarborough but they have no problem elevating them when digging makes no sense.

Unfortunately you're not providing reason, it's all ego based 'we deserve a subway' rhetoric.

I don't need to provide a reason. You're not a good reader/listener. I said many time that I was against the 1 stop subway.

 

[Cobra]

Me too. Subway is fine, if Scarborough accepts elevated transit like all world class transit systems have.

But, then we reveal the real reason for the subway rhetoric in Scarborough. Underground means roads are not ripped up, and that is the crux of it. (Oh ho ho, they should take a look at Eglinton!)

To be fair, has elevated subways ever been presented to Scarborough to begin with? I think not and people are reasonable and have seen elevated subways around the world already. Except those facing expropriation and having to live near it (like everywhere else in the world), I'm not convinced that the overall population would reject elevated subways.

I remember going to a consultation and asking Byford why the TTC would not even consider elevated LRT or skytrain (not even subways) and he answered that it was visually intrusive and people would find it noisy. Pfff, I think not, I think it's a political directive to the TTC from politicians and/or the TTC itself who just don't want to deal with complaints...aka "lack of leadership".

We all remember that it took a Star article from people not wanting to "maybe" get expropriated for the TTC to change some of their plans for the SSE.

The elevated subway issue has been decided for the people, not by the people.