[jwill]

I don't understand the value of having Georgetown and Barrie terminate at Bathurst Yard, then dumping most of their passengers onto the DRL. Why wouldn't they just operate the GO trains through that tunnel? Its like driving down the Gardiner, parking your car at the exit ramp, then catching a taxi to the office. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[mpd618]

Further to the discussion of focusing on downtown versus other nodes - there's some good discussion over at Pedestrian Observations about centralization in large cities (and it being good for transit), focusing on NYC but touching on exactly the same issues.

 

[accura407]

if metrolinx goes ahead with putting the lakeshore line underground with a union station south, it would be ideal to build a gardiner tunnel in conjunction with a rail tunnel. Of course i am sure such well executed coordination would never take place because it makes too much sense.

Not to mention if you build a 6-8 lane + 3-4 track underground transportation corridor, you get a tonne of surplus land above that can be sold to help partially pay back the costs of such a large project!

But yeah unless.metrolinx uploads the gardiner, it wont happen.

 

[11th]

They've been trying to push employment out of downtown to NYCC and STC for probably longer than you've been alive. Certainly longer than I've been alive. It hasn't really worked out exactly as planned.

There were other factors that derailed those plans, i.e. recession in the late 80s-early 90s.

The other thing you're talking about is the GO-ALRT plan from decades ago which would have been 100x more useful as a 401 reliever than the useless Sheppard subway.

The truth, neither can be a true 401 reliever. The only difference being Sheppard runs under a major arterial, and the ALRT plan runs in the hydro corridor; which one has more development potential?

 

[gweed123]

The truth, neither can be a true 401 reliever. The only difference being Sheppard runs under a major arterial, and the ALRT plan runs in the hydro corridor; which one has more development potential?

Express corridors aren't about development potential, they're about connectivity. If they connect two or more points that people want to get to/from quickly, it'll do well. And if the places where it does stop have dense nodal development, it'll do even better. But you certainly don't need development the whole way along a corridor in order for it to be successful. The main thing corridors like that need in order to do well is, where there is a station, to have each station be a mini-hub for that area (connectivity).

 

[MisterF]

I definitely would chose a tunnel running through downtown rather than the Lakeshore. City residents should get faster service than they get by streetcar today, not to mention the added development that you would see.

What I like about both plans is that they will change the notion of being a one-terminus city. In European cities, it's completely normal to enter the city at one of several rail hubs, then take the subway right to your destination. Transit in Toronto will be miles ahead if we begin to think that way too.

Couldn't agree more. Dispersing the traffic to several stations would have the added benefit of better serving the hospitals and the mid-downtown area and encouraging new office buildings to be more spread around downtown. The key to all this is fare integration. Downtown Toronto hasn't only outgrown the King and Queen streetcars, it's also outgrown having only one regional transit hub.

I don't understand the value of having Georgetown and Barrie terminate at Bathurst Yard, then dumping most of their passengers onto the DRL. Why wouldn't they just operate the GO trains through that tunnel? Its like driving down the Gardiner, parking your car at the exit ramp, then catching a taxi to the office. Doesn't make sense to me.

One of the options has a GO tunnel along Queen basically playing the part of the DRT line. The problem is that the east end is far better served by a line going to Pape. If the GO lines are electrified they could combine the Queen GO tunnel and he DRT line into a single line going to Pape. It could even extend up Don Mills. There would be no clear separation between the subway and regional trains, which is the way it should be.

 

[11th]

Express corridors aren't about development potential, they're about connectivity. If they connect two or more points that people want to get to/from quickly, it'll do well. And if the places where it does stop have dense nodal development, it'll do even better. But you certainly don't need development the whole way along a corridor in order for it to be successful. The main thing corridors like that need in order to do well is, where there is a station, to have each station be a mini-hub for that area (connectivity).

In planning prespective, sure, that should be the case, but the subway does have better bang on the buck than LRT in hydro corridor. And even when it's about connectivity, it still favours subway over ALRT (routings) - for the city (Toronto). ALRT was more of a northern GO route than a northern crosstown route anyways.

 

[gweed123]

In planning prespective, sure, that should be the case, but the subway does have better bang on the buck than LRT in hydro corridor. And even when it's about connectivity, it still favours subway over ALRT (routings) - for the city (Toronto). ALRT was more of a northern GO route than a northern crosstown route anyways.

I'm not a strong proponent of ALRT in the Hydro Corridor, I'm a strong proponent of BRT in the Hydro Corridor. Far less expensive, can handle the projected ridership, and blows HRT out of the water for that corridor on a cost per passenger basis (when capital costs are factored in). Also gives the option to run express and local routes on the same corridor, something that, if done using rail-based technology, would be extremely expensive.

 

[Solid Snake]

4A:I expect the city to fight to have 4A going under Front st instead of Queen or King. The City would revitalize the areas that would have a subway station on that line. The streetcars and bus rides would way shorter for people trying to get to a subway line which would make these bus and streetcar routes less overcrowded and more efficient. It leaves the possibility to eventually extended the line to Eglinton on both side and adding stops along the way to reach more people. This would truly transform Toronto. Lest's not forget about the West Donlands and the new Waterfront areas that will need that line to go south to Union while going through the Distillery District with stations at Gerrard, Queen east.

4B:Having the Go lines end at Bathurst makes no sense. You just dump them on the subway creating an unnecessary transfer and ignoring the neighborhoods that could have used a subway station (Roncesvalles, Parkdale). Having the subway terminate at Exhibition is beyond ridiculous. It should stop there but certainly not end there. People go there mostly in the summertime.

6B: It's great for Go Transit and 905 commuters but it doesn't do anything for Toronto. It doesn't address the overused Yonge line. How would the transfer at Main station and Go work? They would have to reroute the line closser to Bloor because no one will walk that distance to take the GO Train to go downtown. This option is a great idea like the RER in Paris for the 905. Replacing the DRL for 6B (or only getting one of them) would be a disastrous idea.

-Hard to believe that the city won't put a fight to have that line built as a subway that would be part of the TTC network. Council will want to have the opportunity to be able to improve the commuting in the 416 and revitalize parts of the city along the way. A subway line would also make the West Donlands, Distillery District, new waterfront neighborhoods, City Place, Liberty Village Parkdale and Roncevalles all connected which would make them thrive. DRL going up to Eglinton would relieve the Yonge line

This below still makes way more sense to me and I'm sure to city council as well.

 

[M II A II R II K]

How about less study and more digging.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

WRT to Lakeshore not hitting enough 416 residents. It's more a lack of stations than a lack of ridership that prevents torontonians from taking the Lakeshore GO line. Consider only the West end, there's the Liberty village area, the development happening around the Park Lawn area (mimico station, though I think a station is needed closer to Park Lawn), New Toronto/Long Branch. All are expected to experience explosive growth in the DRT plans timeline and would certainly benefit from a 10 minute train ride to downtown vs a 30-40 minute bus/streetcar to subway ride.

 

[M II A II R II K]

WRT to Lakeshore not hitting enough 416 residents. It's more a lack of stations than a lack of ridership that prevents torontonians from taking the Lakeshore GO line. Consider only the West end, there's the Liberty village area, the development happening around the Park Lawn area (mimico station, though I think a station is needed closer to Park Lawn), New Toronto/Long Branch. All are expected to experience explosive growth in the DRT plans timeline and would certainly benefit from a 10 minute train ride to downtown vs a 30-40 minute bus/streetcar to subway ride.

Then electrifying the thing and building those stations should be the top priority as well as connecting enough bus routes to it. And of course integrating the fare system which includes of course not paying 2 separate fares.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Then electrifying the thing and building those stations should be the top priority as well as connecting enough bus routes to it. And of course integrating the fare system which includes of course not paying 2 separate fares.

Ok agree.

One of the things is that it kinda does make sense to have a station at Bathurst in that model (of electrifying and adding stations in the 416), I went along and measured out approximate 2km station lengths and came up with Bathurst, Exhibition (this may need to be relocated to Dufferin for better integration with TTC service), Roncy/King/Queen/Queensway (Parkdale?), Humber Bay/Park Lawn and/or Mimico, Kipling/New Toronto, and Long Branch as potential stations along Lakeshore West. 3 already exist or are nearby.

 

[agoraflaneur]

Apparently Metrolinx has rejected studying the DRL as previously planned. They have decided that only Union station congestion is an important issue, and have come up with a plan to shift GO traffic to another station at Bathurst or Yonge, with a subway running from Exhibition Place to Woodbine Station via a winding route from Front up to Queen then to Bloor in the East.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1091627

Here is an image of the map provided
http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/24/95/4755674645e6acfb393cd4c733d0.jpeg

 

[M II A II R II K]

That's great! Multiple transit hubs like in London, and a "Circle Line" equivalent to connect them all.