[CapitalSeven]

One thing they are planning to develop in the Sheppard and Morningside area is the carhouse that's going to serve the LRT lines in that part of the city, so the track is going in either way. If they built the track but didn't use it for revenue service because of the sparser development, of course everyone would bash them for that.

 

[Tuscani01]

They can make a separate map that includes all the streetcars for the streetcars. But they still don't belong on the subway map. I.e. the map that is on the subway train. Space is at a premium on those maps. And so is simplicity.

That won't help anyone on the subway plan their route when looking at the maps in trains, and won't help anyone on the LRT looking to continue their route on the subway. (Unless they are regular TTC users and know all the lines off the top of their heads) Space is not at a premium, at least not now... and with the system for showing LRT lines that everyone is talking about, it will still be a simple map.

 

[Rainforest]

What if the area in question is slated to be redeveloped? What it not building it now will cost considerably more than building it in the not-so-distant future when it is needed.

Look, there is no doubt that the routing of many of the Transit City lines is politically motivated. But keep in mind that some of the lines are being built to serve the anticipated development and demand, not necessarily what is there now. There is already a pretty decent amount of development around Sheppard between Morningside and Meadowvale, but it is nothing in comparison to the land there that will be redeveloped in our lifetimes.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

The problem with this particular service (Sheppard East LRT to Morningside and Meadowvale) is that it will be too slow to really connect that remote area with the rest of the city. For anyone east of Markham Rd, it will be a 30 - 40 min ride just to reach Don Mills Stn. And for most, Don Mills won't be the final destination, but a transfer point.

A sharp contrast with Finch West LRT. There, a 15 - 25 min ride will get you from the outer (western) portions to Spadina subway, a gateway to downtown or York U. Or, 30 - 40 min to Yonge subway, which has many destinations along its northern section.

 

[PaulG]

I think there's too many stops, the number of stops could probably be cut in half at least, maybe just have a stop wherever there's an intersecting bus line.

How fast are these things going to go? whatever it is, it probably should be doubled at least. This page says 22km/hr?,

Why isn't the Eglinton and the Malvern lines combined so it's one continuous ride?

and why do they call it the "Malvern" line when it doesn't even go to Malvern Town Centre?

 

[RedRocket191]

That won't help anyone on the subway plan their route when looking at the maps in trains, and won't help anyone on the LRT looking to continue their route on the subway. (Unless they are regular TTC users and know all the lines off the top of their heads) Space is not at a premium, at least not now... and with the system for showing LRT lines that everyone is talking about, it will still be a simple map.

In support of this view in the Metrolinx RTP, which has the force of provincial policy:

STRATEGY #5
CREATE A CUSTOMER-FIRST TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM

It often appears as if the GTHA’s current transportation system is designed and operated with the needs of the transportation provider in mind, rather than those of the traveller. With limited resources available to them, local transit agencies have had to focus on meeting immediate demands.

To achieve an effective transportation system, this must change. The comfort and convenience of the traveller must be the primary consideration in how the transportation system is planned, designed and operated. Regional travel must be made more convenient and barrier-free as travellers transfer between modes, services and across municipal boundaries. Travellers must have the information they need to make the best choices about whether, when, where and how they travel. Planning a trip with certainty, regardless of destination or mode, should be easy for travellers or commercial users. Most of all, the system needs to strive to make transportation a more reliable and enjoyable experience for users.

I think there's too many stops, the number of stops could probably be cut in half at least, maybe just have a stop wherever there's an intersecting bus line.

With all due respect, the EA has been underway for ages and what is being proposed is the product of several years of studies. They looked at that and recommended against it with cause.

How fast are these things going to go? whatever it is, it probably should be doubled at least. This page says 22km/hr?,

Not even the subway runs as fast as 44 km/h average. Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia. Eglinton is supposed to run in the high 20s, while the subway runs in the low 30s.

Why isn't the Eglinton and the Malvern lines combined so it's one continuous ride?

Who says it can't be in the future?

and why do they call it the "Malvern" line when it doesn't even go to Malvern Town Centre?

Because Malvern is a neighbourhood, and a fairly large one bounded by Markham Road, Finch, Morningside and Highway 401 according to the City of Toronto. It's not just a mall.

 

[smallspy]

Are you planning to live to 150? Look, the houses and big box stores along Sheppard there are brand new. Demand won't change much unless raccoons start taking the TTC. It will *always* be a nowhere. Meanwhile, places that actually need billions in transit investments will stay crippled for decades.

So, where exactly do you think that this additional million people projected to move into Toronto in the next 20 years or so move too then? There aren't going to be enough condos downtown (even if I live to 150) to house all of them. Ergo, you have to look at the places where there isn't a lot of development now, such as - Surprise! - northern Scarborough.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[waterloowarrior]

What if the area in question is slated to be redeveloped? What it not building it now will cost considerably more than building it in the not-so-distant future when it is needed.

Look, there is no doubt that the routing of many of the Transit City lines is politically motivated. But keep in mind that some of the lines are being built to serve the anticipated development and demand, not necessarily what is there now. There is already a pretty decent amount of development around Sheppard between Morningside and Meadowvale, but it is nothing in comparison to the land there that will be redeveloped in our lifetimes.
[...]

So, where exactly do you think that this additional million people projected to move into Toronto in the next 20 years or so move too then? There aren't going to be enough condos downtown (even if I live to 150) to house all of them. Ergo, you have to look at the places where there isn't a lot of development now, such as - Surprise! - northern Scarborough.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

The area around Sheppard is projected for low growth, and no one is going to be redeveloping Rouge Park. Many of the census tracts around Sheppard East are currently declining. From 2006 to 2031, the EA shows growth of about 7000 in the area east of Markham Rd between the 401, the rail corridor, and morningside, and 6000 east of Morningwise/north of the 401. Job growth in both areas is projected very low. Meanwhile the much smaller Scarborough Town Centre area will be growing by 35,000 people.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Eglinton, unlike a corridor like Yonge or Finch, isn't particularly nodal...it's pretty consistent for most of its length, enough that any stop removed affects a significant chunk of people. Other than the subway interchanges, most stops will see fairly similar daily usage. When a line has one stop with 50,000 riders a day, followed by a stop with 2,000, followed by one with 40,000, it's easy to point to that 2,000 rider a day station and say "cut!" to benefit the 50,000 farther along, but if Eglinton's stops all see, say, close to 10,000 per day, which ones get cut? Some stations will have high bus feeder ridership but almost no walk-in riders, while others won't have much in the way of bus connections but will have many walk-ins. Once a line gets to 1km spacing, it should be passing from big node to big node with little in between...most of Eglinton is anything but that.

So, where exactly do you think that this additional million people projected to move into Toronto in the next 20 years or so move too then? There aren't going to be enough condos downtown (even if I live to 150) to house all of them. Ergo, you have to look at the places where there isn't a lot of development now, such as - Surprise! - northern Scarborough.

Err...no. We won't get a million added residents in the next 20 years. Even with rampant suburban condo/townhouse construction, we have to keep chugging along at a rapid clip just to keep pace with household size declines. FYI, household sizes in Malvern are amongst the highest in the city and are set to drop in the coming decades.

First you say there's a pretty decent amount of development along Sheppard, justifying a billion wasted dollars, then you say there isn't a lot of development along Sheppard, also justifying a billion wasted dollars. How convenient. Which is it? Do you honestly think that all those *brand new* houses and other buildings are going to be redeveloped within 20 years? Why waste - and waste is the only suitable word - transit funds at Sheppard & Morningside in the misguided belief that brand new structures will be redeveloped right away when there's horribly slow and overcrowded routes elsewhere that won't see a shred of improvement?

 

[Second_in_pie]

So, where exactly do you think that this additional million people projected to move into Toronto in the next 20 years or so move too then? There aren't going to be enough condos downtown (even if I live to 150) to house all of them. Ergo, you have to look at the places where there isn't a lot of development now, such as - Surprise! - northern Scarborough.

Umm, Agincourt-Morningside has got to be one of the least likely to be developed areas in the entire GTA.

I'm willing to believe that we could get a million people in 20 years, but they won't be going to pretty avenues with LRT running through the middle that still take 40 minutes to get to a subway. They'll be going to places that are connected. STC, which was mentioned before, is an example. It's got pretty empty land, and is serviced by real RT, within 40 mins of downtown.

If you want to see development, build a real RT network, comprised of RT. That'll give plenty of areas for high density nodal development (Eglinton West is quite a good candidate for this,) and will make other trips faster by linking them to the network. Once the network's in place and there's transit-oriented development throughout the city, we can start working on these "European" avenues.

 

[Tdot_one]

^ Improving GO to at least 20-25 minute inter-peak frequency would make Malvern rather attractive. In fact, Agincourt goes directly to Union. No stops. That'd be a lot more frequent than an LRT or subway. I still don't understand why the area requires an LRT, though.

STC doesn't necessarily require rapid transit, but connecting the largest economic center East of Yonge does make sense. Connecting the immediate Scarberian population to an emerging CBD would enhance development. Future population growth could easily housed within this corridor within condos and townhouses.

 

[kettal]

I'm willing to believe that we could get a million people in 20 years, but they won't be going to pretty avenues with LRT running through the middle that still take 40 minutes to get to a subway. They'll be going to places that are connected. STC, which was mentioned before, is an example. It's got pretty empty land, and is serviced by real RT, within 40 mins of downtown.

Somehow the 905 region has added millions of people in the past decade, and the buses that run through there much slower and take much longer to get to the subway.

 

[Dan416]

Somehow the 905 region has added millions of people in the past decade, and the buses that run through there much slower and take much longer to get to the subway.

905 is powered by cars, and to a lesser extent GO transit, not municipal buses.

People complain about buses, and yet when I advocate replacing the buses connecting Square One with the subway network, 416ers go bananas. I'd like to take the time to remind people that I remember having a 416 home phone number, thank you very much. You can thank Bell Canada for doing a geographic split of 905 from 416, and then deciding to do overlays AFTER, resulting in area codes 289 and 365 on top of 905, and 647 on top of 416. If Bell had done an overlay to begin with, I don't think Toronto would have become so parochial. Instead we'd have the whole 416/905 area code sharing multiple overlays with no area code indicating any kind of geography (as is happening now with 905/289/365).

 

[Komiksulo]

Area code 365? That's a new one on me...

 

[Dan416]

Area code 365? That's a new one on me...

365 is being introduced in October....












of 2015.

Tens years after that, 742 is reserved as 905's fourth area code.

416/647 hasn't had a third area code chosen as yet.

 

[Komiksulo]

365 is being introduced in October....












of 2015.

Oh good. I was starting to panic there for a moment.

Though with ten-digit dialling, there's no reason they can't use 416 as an exchange code in the 416 area code, and similarly for 647, 905, 289, etc. People don't get confused by dialling 800-800-8300 for Tiger Direct, after all.

I wish they'd de-split the area as well and allow all the area codes to intermix as well. I also wish we'd gotten area code 234 instead of 905. Then I would have gotten phone number 1-234-567-8901.