[golodhendil]

Interesting that you should mention the Green Line, as the Green Line doesn't even show all the stops since there's so many of them.

All stops are shown, but not all are named. The Green Line also uses different thickness for grade-separated (Central Subway, D branch) and non-grade-separated sections.

^ In Germany, their schnellbahn-netzplan (rapid transit map) often show just U-Bahn and S-Bahn lines. Trams/LRTs are shown in a tramnetzplan (tram plan) and are shown on a system map where trams are shown just like buses.

Munich's maps are an example:

http://www.mvg-mobil.de/netzplaene.htm

In the case of Toronto, if we are going to put all the LRTs on the map, should we not put all of Toronto's streetcar lines on the map as well?

And then you have examples like the linienplan schnellverkehr of Köln-Bonn, which shows the S-bahn and the entire U-stadtbahn network including both the GS and non-GS sections; or those of the Rhein-Ruhr area or of Frankfurt, which show the S-bahn and U-stadtbahn networks (similar to Köln-Bonn) but not the strassenbahn (tram) network; or Brussels' metro map, which shows the HRT metro and the underground section (but not the surface portion) of the LRT premetro, or those of Amsterdam and Rotterdam, which do show the surface-running sections of their sneltram in addition to grade-separated HRT/LRT metro. It is thus not true that all "light rails" are omitted from rapid transit maps and shown like buses, and including sections with their own ROW (grade-separated of not) does not mean they must then show the entire streetcar network.

 

[Tuscani01]

Unless the times are actually rapid, I wouldn't put them on the map. It'd be false advertising. Seeing something on a subway map makes you expect subway-like service.

Thats why I said to use a thin solid red line to signify the LRT routes and not show stops. It signifies that there is a difference between the two services, but allows users to see that there is an alternative to the subway during times of need.

PS. I HAVE used the St. Clair ROW to go from St. Clair to St. Clair West station, and it is very effective. It's a relatively quick trip. I also use the QQ ROW quite frequently since I live downtown and use the waterfront quite frequently during the summer. Its much faster than the King or Queen streetcar lines, and is often full of tourists. The fact that it goes to the ferry docks and all the way to the Ex (BMO Field) is enough of a reason to have it included on the maps.

 

[Dan416]

Thats why I said to use a thin solid red line to signify the LRT routes and not show stops. It signifies that there is a difference between the two services, but allows users to see that there is an alternative to the subway during times of need.

PS. I HAVE used the St. Clair ROW to go from St. Clair to St. Clair West station, and it is very effective. It's a relatively quick trip. I also use the QQ ROW quite frequently since I live downtown and use the waterfront quite frequently during the summer. Its much faster than the King or Queen streetcar lines, and is often full of tourists. The fact that it goes to the ferry docks and all the way to the Ex (BMO Field) is enough of a reason to have it included on the maps.

These things are on system maps. I just don't believe they belong on a rapid transit map. Rapid transit to me means grade separated, i.e. not stopping for red lights. You can say that for the tunnelled portion of Eglinton, but not for Queen's Quay (except for a tiny stretch entering Union) and Spadina (entering Spadina Station) but those don't count. Just because something is on rails doesn't mean it belongs on the subway map. We don't put GO service on subway maps, and we don't put LRT on the map. If you want to make a separate map for the LRTs that shows the LRTs in the city, fine go ahead, but it doesn't belong on the subways in my opinion, because the service they offer isn't comparable.

 

[Fresh Start]

^ If they put the tunneled section of Eglinton on the map, then it justifies highlighting the entire route even if the service quality is lesser in the outlying areas. And if one TC LRT qualifies, soon they all will. The TTC will want to showcase its new system as much as it can, true rapidness or grade-separated exclusive ROWs be damned. So soon the Toronto subway map could have 11 lines, wherein only 4-5 deserve to be there.

 

[kettal]

Yes, let's continue to have the most Spartan maps possible... to save ink.

We don't want riders to know of any alternatives to their regular routes. This way next time a subway fails, we'll continue to have the mass chaos we did when the yonge line went down. Bit at least we'll save ink.

 

[BMO]

These things are on system maps. I just don't believe they belong on a rapid transit map. Rapid transit to me means grade separated, i.e. not stopping for red lights. You can say that for the tunnelled portion of Eglinton, but not for Queen's Quay (except for a tiny stretch entering Union) and Spadina (entering Spadina Station) but those don't count. Just because something is on rails doesn't mean it belongs on the subway map. We don't put GO service on subway maps, and we don't put LRT on the map. If you want to make a separate map for the LRTs that shows the LRTs in the city, fine go ahead, but it doesn't belong on the subways in my opinion, because the service they offer isn't comparable.

but you see because the LRTs will be in their own r.o.w. riders will be able to rely on their service and get to certain parts of the city in a certain amount of time, whereas with buses, one never really knows. Even if they aren't fully grade-seperated they are still seperated from traffic, and regardless of whether it will be rapid or not, it will still be coming on 3 or 4 minute frequencies (I believe don't quote me) and provide a frequent/reliable/ decently fast transit option. Just use coloured thin lines on the map for the lrts and just show the major stops, like the major transfer points and the rest just leave blank and note that their are local stops. there, done

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Apparently, York South-Weston Councillor Frances Nunziata and the Mount Dennis Community Asssociation will host a meeting today, Monday, to discuss the Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail's impact on the Mount Dennis community. It is to be held at the Salvation Army, 1100 Weston Road, just south of Eglinton Avenue West.

See article from insideToronto.com at this link.

Looks like even electric trains (? Trains? These are hardly trains on the scale of GO. They are trams, calling them Trains is disingenuous) aren't enough to satisfy YSW and WCC. How can one observe them and not come to the conclusion that all they want is a subway in their region and every complaint or lobby is a move towards that end.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I think that the maps that TO_Penguin made in the Fantasy maps thread look pretty good and it is quite clear to me which lines will be faster.

For example:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5230/mapv6.png

J.

That map makes it so enormously clear how important the DRL is. Show that map to anyone unfamiliar with Toronto and ask them where the major population and business centres are and they'll tell you it's somewhere between Eglinton and Bloor. (Or maybe off in Scarborough.)

 

[Hank]

I think that the maps that TO_Penguin made in the Fantasy maps thread look pretty good and it is quite clear to me which lines will be faster.

For example:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5230/mapv6.png

J.

I agree. I think this map is great. I too don't understand why some people advocate staying with a less useful map just because the additions aren't "rapid" enough to qualify. The tram in Amsterdam has a map showing all the stops (and there are lots) despite not being anywhere close to subway speeds; it makes the system significantly easier to use for someone not already familiar with their route. LRT is a significant step up from buses in many ways and deserves to be on this map, in my opinion.

 

[Dan416]

I agree. I think this map is great. I too don't understand why some people advocate staying with a less useful map just because the additions aren't "rapid" enough to qualify. The tram in Amsterdam has a map showing all the stops (and there are lots) despite not being anywhere close to subway speeds; it makes the system significantly easier to use for someone not already familiar with their route. LRT is a significant step up from buses in many ways and deserves to be on this map, in my opinion.

They can make a separate map that includes all the streetcars for the streetcars. But they still don't belong on the subway map. I.e. the map that is on the subway train. Space is at a premium on those maps. And so is simplicity.

 

[Tdot_one]

TO_Penguin should include the GO lines onto his map as well. If the stations were better connected or even moved closer to potential economic centers, Toronto's public transportation system would be a lot more comprehensive.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^^ Yeah, cause we should leave the suburbs to cars. They're fools to even try and make Toronto's suburbs sustainable.

Yes, they are fools to run LRT lines out to Morningside & Sheppard.

 

[Dan416]

Running LRT (or subway) to nowhere is unsustainable. Whether it be VCC or Morningside & Sheppard, or anywhere west of Hurontario.

 

[smallspy]

Running LRT (or subway) to nowhere is unsustainable. Whether it be VCC or Morningside & Sheppard, or anywhere west of Hurontario.

What if the area in question is slated to be redeveloped? What it not building it now will cost considerably more than building it in the not-so-distant future when it is needed.

Look, there is no doubt that the routing of many of the Transit City lines is politically motivated. But keep in mind that some of the lines are being built to serve the anticipated development and demand, not necessarily what is there now. There is already a pretty decent amount of development around Sheppard between Morningside and Meadowvale, but it is nothing in comparison to the land there that will be redeveloped in our lifetimes.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What if the area in question is slated to be redeveloped? What it not building it now will cost considerably more than building it in the not-so-distant future when it is needed.

Look, there is no doubt that the routing of many of the Transit City lines is politically motivated. But keep in mind that some of the lines are being built to serve the anticipated development and demand, not necessarily what is there now. There is already a pretty decent amount of development around Sheppard between Morningside and Meadowvale, but it is nothing in comparison to the land there that will be redeveloped in our lifetimes.

Are you planning to live to 150? Look, the houses and big box stores along Sheppard there are brand new. Demand won't change much unless raccoons start taking the TTC. It will *always* be a nowhere. Meanwhile, places that actually need billions in transit investments will stay crippled for decades.