[GraphicMatt]

I am cyclist myself and being the 905 I have to deal with the stupidest motorists of all. But I don't see how people are defending this cyclist, who I think was the aggressor from the beginning. We shouldn't defend him just because he was a cyclist. Just the simple fact that he jumped on the car and was holding on (which was apparent from the beginning) shows that he was at fault here, because it left Bryant with few options. There is no way to defend this action, and it is only one that matters. As I said, we should stop blaming the victim.

Driving down the wrong side of the road, going up onto curbs, hitting mailboxes and poles, etc is negligent behaviour. The only way I could see Bryant going the self-defense route would be if Sheppard had a gun or a knife or was in fact grabbing at the wheel of the car himself.

The charges are criminal negligence causing death and dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing death.Bryant clearly did not leave the scene and did not intend to kill Sheppard, but he still responded to a heated situation in an unsafe and potentially criminal way.

I think today's evidence puts Bryant in a much better light but it seems difficult to absolve him of all wrongdoing. (I also think characterizing the victim as some kind of worthless drunk because he struggled with addiction is a bit dubious.)

 

[GraphicMatt]

Agreed ... but I haven't seen a report that any other vehicle was even scratched in this, yet alone any injuries. Nor have I heard reports of pedestrians diving for cover. But I might have missed ... so if there are any links, I'd love to see them.

From today's Star:

Within seconds, the westbound car had crossed over into the eastbound lanes of Bloor St. Construction workers laying pipe on the stretch of road gaped as the car swerved toward them. It was dark. Many couldn't see Sheppard clinging to the vehicle. All of them said they could hear Bryant screaming.

"The car was riding right up against the sidewalk where there were trees and posts and newspaper boxes. The tires were screeching," said witness Josh Harlan.

"Suddenly it was clear to me whoever was dragging on the side of the car was in mortal danger. It was like something out of a gangster movie."

Several witnesses said it looked like the driver was trying to brush the cyclist off his car using the roadside objects as bludgeons. The first thing Sheppard struck was a small tree. Then he slammed into a grey mail collection box. Sheppard fell from the car. During the collision, he was thrown under the Saab's rear wheels.

 

[Whoaccio]

Self-defence is a somewhat murky area, but the general idea is that you're allowed to use the amount of force that is necessary in the situation. You can use deadly force, but only if the situation warrants it. Did this situation warrant Bryant's use of deadly force (and I think most people would recognize that smashing someone into a mailbox at high speeds can potentially be deadly)? I don't know...we'll have to wait until the facts come out.

The murky area there would be that Bryant intended to use deadly force on the assailant. In retrospect it is easy to say sideswipping a mailbox at high speed is deadly, but it could be plausibly argued that Bryant was originally attempting to escape the assault, at which point the assailant attached himself to the vehicle, which contributed to Bryant sideswiping a mailbox. If, for instance, the assailant began clawing at Bryant's face (that isn't factual, just speculation), it could be fairly easy for him to argue he was simply distracted. Even just having someone hanging on to your car next to your head could be more than enough to cause someone to loose focus on the road.

 

[lordmandeep]

Yeah were better off arguing what is reasonable self defense or what is not reasonable self defense then arguing over what really happened that night.


All we know if Bryant was in the States he would have a much easier time in the courts.


This could become a land mark case about Self-defense in Canada.

 

[Roy G Biv]

My educated guess on what transpired:

- Sheppard and Bryant have contact and begin to argue
- Bryant probably figures it's best to just remove himself from the situation as Sheppard slams bag on hood
- As Bryant is leaving, Sheppard runs after the car and grabs onto the side
- Bryant freaks out and figures he's going to get beaten, so he takes off in attempt to get away from Sheppard
- Bryant sees that that Sheppard is still hanging on, and attempts to knock him off action-movie-style

That last point is the kicker. Punch the cyclist, scream for help, drive away etc... but as soon as you veer into oncoming traffic and deliberately attempt to smash the guy against a tree/mailbox, your act of self-defense becomes disproportionate.

Many people probably would have done the same thing, but that does not make the action excusable. Bryant is not a murderer or killer, but a man who freaked and showed terrible judgement in a panic situation.

Because Bryant is an important figure, everyone is assuming he'll get off easy. It doesn't help that they waived his bail hearing. Talk about bad PR.

 

[nfitz]

From today's Star:

Nothing about pedestrians diving for cover though ...

... not the best course of action, but given that someone who was clearly intoxicated had thrown a bicycle at him, and then tried to climb into the car ...

I also think characterizing the victim as some kind of worthless drunk because he struggled with addiction is a bit dubious.

I haven't see any attempt to do that. What is important though is that he was heavily intoxicated (perhaps expaining why he ran into the car in the first place), having been involved with an incident with the police less than 45 minutes earlier, at which time he was described as "'He can't make it home, he's intoxicated. He cannot ride a bike". Surely that he was exceedingly drunk at the time is highly relevant. It will be interesting to see what his blood alcohol level was in the autopsy.

 

[confusion]

If someone throws a bike at you I think you are allowed to hit something back at him too.

If someone knocks you off your bike with their car, are you allowed to drive away? Would a cyclist be justified in retaliation if the driver attempted to drive away? Probably not, but he has every right to attempt to detain the fleeing vehicle. City news has some security camera footage showing Sheppard laying down his bike in front of the car in order to prevent Bryant from leaving. Bryant does not comply, reverses and drives around to the right of Sheppard. With the video you cannot tell if Bryant is clipped or hanging on, but it is too close.

What I'm getting at is you're missing the context of the previous events. They are crucial to the entire investigation.

 

[Roy G Biv]

Nothing about pedestrians diving for cover though ...

If you're arguing that Bryant checked if the coast was clear, and then went for it, this could actually hurt his case, because it shows some pre-meditation.

Surely that he was exceedingly drunk at the time is highly relevant. It will be interesting to see what his blood alcohol level was in the autopsy.

How is it relevant? It will come down to what happened (witness testimony).

 

[Whoaccio]

That last point is the kicker. Punch the cyclist, scream for help, drive away etc... but as soon as you veer into oncoming traffic and deliberately attempt to smash the guy against a tree/mailbox, your act of self-defense becomes disproportionate.

Thats not entirely clear, though. Perhaps the cause of Bryant swerving was that he was distracted by some guy grappling his car a few inches from his head, possibly after assaulting him. I don't know what happened, but I think most people can understand why, in that situation, a driver may not be able to give his undivided attention to the road. The moment someone decided it would be wise to try to mount (enter?) a vehicle in a hostile manner, there are lots of ways death could occur short of someone "deliberately [attempting] to smash the guy]" against random objects.

 

[Whoaccio]

If someone knocks you off your bike with their car, are you allowed to drive away? Would a cyclist be justified in retaliation if the driver attempted to drive away?

Uhh, there is no evidence of that. We know there was an altercation, following which the cyclist attached himself to Bryant's vehicle. Following that, Bryant tried to flee (obviously feeling threatened).

I really don't know why people keep suggesting Bryant carried out some kind of hit and run. There is no evidence of that and he is not being charged with that. It is getting ridiculous at this point to keep suggesting he did.

Probably not, but he has every right to attempt to detain the fleeing vehicle. City news has some security camera footage showing Sheppard laying down his bike in front of the car in order to prevent Bryant from leaving. Bryant does not comply, reverses and drives around to the right of Sheppard. With the video you cannot tell if Bryant is clipped or hanging on, but it is too close.

Can you link to this video? I have seen nothing of the sort on CTV's website.

 

[nfitz]

If someone knocks you off your bike ... City news has some security camera footage showing Sheppard laying down his bike in front of the car in order to prevent Bryant from leaving. Bryant does not comply, reverses and drives around to the right of Sheppard.

If that's the case, that does raise questions. Other reports though say that Sheppard was the one who collided with Bryant, and that his first response was to throw the bicycle at Bryant.

If you're arguing that Bryant checked if the coast was clear, and then went for it, this could actually hurt his case, because it shows some pre-meditation.

I'm not sure that would be pre-meditation ... that requires there to have been intent to harm the cyclist, rather than simply to protect oneself.

How is (drunkeness) relevant? It will come down to what happened (witness testimony).

As witness testimony from his friends shortly before the incident is that "he was too drunk to ride a bicycle", then surely that could explain a lot of why the initial accident took place.

 

[golodhendil]

Where's the source about the cyclist throwing his bike at Bryant? Because the account on both Star and Globe say that he slammed his bag, not his bike.

 

[lordmandeep]

If someone knocks you off your bike with their car, are you allowed to drive away? Would a cyclist be justified in retaliation if the driver attempted to drive away? Probably not, but he has every right to attempt to detain the fleeing vehicle. City news has some security camera footage showing Sheppard laying down his bike in front of the car in order to prevent Bryant from leaving. Bryant does not comply, reverses and drives around to the right of Sheppard. With the video you cannot tell if Bryant is clipped or hanging on, but it is too close.

It all depends on how he was trying to detain the vehicle.

Some say he assaulted Bryant, then of course Bryant has the right to leave the scene. However if Bryant hit a cyclist he should have stayed with the cyclist.

However Bryant could say he was being belligerent and was drunk and ran away because he felt threated??

I would imagine a lot of lawyers are really interested in this case.

That brings us to another interesting topic.

If you hit a car and then the other driver threatens you, can you drive away fearing for your life or is that still a hit and run???

 

[nfitz]

Where's the source about the cyclist throwing his bike at Bryant? Because the account on both Star and Globe say that he slammed his bag, not his bike.

"Witnesses said Sheppard threw his bike at a car before confronting the driver and reaching into the car."

 

[Roy G Biv]

Thats not entirely clear, though. Perhaps the cause of Bryant swerving was that he was distracted by some guy grappling his car a few inches from his head, possibly after assaulting him.

Witness testimony makes is clear that the car was under control.