jn_12
Senior Member
uhhh it was originally the G6, and Canada was brought in in 1976. Italy was already a member of the Original G6 and it was Russia who were added in 1997 to make it the G8. But good try.
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- Thread starter TO City of Light
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AGTO
Banned
The US and Italy? Perhaps you meant adulterous.
Are 'you' actually implying that you can remove Canada from the G8?
khris
Senior Member
A month away, and we still don't know the exact area that will be fenced off. They said a couple of weeks I think, but I was hoping we'd know sooner than that. Apparently people who live/work in the zone will receive some sort of card. I don't think I will be in the zone, but you never know. I'm on Nelson Street.
jn_12
Senior Member
Nelson will be fine.
Fresh Start
Banned
Hasn't anyone ever heard of VIDEOCONFERENCING? It's been around for awhile. They can get secure links and not even have to travel. And it wouldn't cost $1 Billion. There's no excuse for this kind of waste. If it's so dangerous that they need that much security, then stay home and use a video/audio link. Canada keeps trying to act like a "big shot" on the world stage, but doesn't have the population to pay for its excesses and that includes the Afghanistan-related military costs.
20 times the cost of London's G20 Summit! - 20 times! Vic Toews is a self-serving fool.
20 times the cost of London's G20 Summit! - 20 times! Vic Toews is a self-serving fool.
Darwinkgo
Active Member
The benefit of being in the same room with someone when you are trying to twist their arm, want to catch them as they leave the central table, want 4 of your buddies to corner them and convince them of your position is immeasurable.
Would you suggest a bride and groom video conference for a weeding? It just loses something....
These conferences are important because stuff is actually done at them. Since the beginning of the liquidity crisis the G20 has made important moves that were hammered out between leaders, not between sherpas weeks in advance.
The costs are due to incompetent planning, but if lets say G8 was held in Toronto as well there would be shutdown for at least an extra day likely two. But it would have saved money because there wouldn't be the problem with having to secure two sites. With only three cities in the country likely having enough hotel space and conference space to host the G20, Vancouver having just recently had a huge security exercise, and Montreal being home to a activist community larger and more organized than Toronto, Toronto makes sense.
That the budget is 20 times London is probably an accounting exercise rather than anything else. It is possible London's base police budget costs were not automatically be refunded by the feds, like it sounds like Toronto's is. Also, they are likely accounting for the cost of the full time of RCMP officers. They would be paid no matter what however so how does one portion out costs. Same with fighter jet sorties - do you deduct the fuel from operational or training flight budgets. In Canada, it seems we always account for the full cost, where in other countries they account for the marginal cost.
As for passes, unless you have been contacted, you are not in the zone. My office was told to submit employee lists by May 10th.
Would you suggest a bride and groom video conference for a weeding? It just loses something....
These conferences are important because stuff is actually done at them. Since the beginning of the liquidity crisis the G20 has made important moves that were hammered out between leaders, not between sherpas weeks in advance.
The costs are due to incompetent planning, but if lets say G8 was held in Toronto as well there would be shutdown for at least an extra day likely two. But it would have saved money because there wouldn't be the problem with having to secure two sites. With only three cities in the country likely having enough hotel space and conference space to host the G20, Vancouver having just recently had a huge security exercise, and Montreal being home to a activist community larger and more organized than Toronto, Toronto makes sense.
That the budget is 20 times London is probably an accounting exercise rather than anything else. It is possible London's base police budget costs were not automatically be refunded by the feds, like it sounds like Toronto's is. Also, they are likely accounting for the cost of the full time of RCMP officers. They would be paid no matter what however so how does one portion out costs. Same with fighter jet sorties - do you deduct the fuel from operational or training flight budgets. In Canada, it seems we always account for the full cost, where in other countries they account for the marginal cost.
As for passes, unless you have been contacted, you are not in the zone. My office was told to submit employee lists by May 10th.
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Commuting to Toronto Union Station during the G-12 Summit...
Everyone: Reading the recent post about the closing of the CN Tower and the move of Blue Jays games out of the Rogers Skydome during the G-20 Summit makes me wonder about the fate of those who commute and travel to Union Station by GO and VIA during that period...
It reminds me of what happened in Boston and NY City in 2004 when the Democratic and Republican National Conventions were meeting
and the high levels of security that was in place for them at a time when anxiety was still high...
In Boston the 2004 Democratic National Convention was held at the Fleet Center(now TD Banknorth Garden)and North Station below it was closed for the duration forcing those who use the four MBTA commuter lines serving it and Amtrak's Downeaster rail service to Portland,Maine to outlying stations for MBTA Rapid Transit into Boston and I also recall that the Orange and Green line rapid transit station there was closed.
If the same situation was applied to Toronto I came up with these alternate access points: GO Transit Rail-
Lakeshore West: Exhibition for streetcar or bus connection to Downtown or Long Branch for the TTC 501 and 508 streetcar routes...
Lakeshore East: Danforth for Bloor/Danforth Subway nearby...
Milton-Kipling Subway for B/D line...
Georgetown and Newmarket: Terminates at Bloor GO Station connecting to Dundas West Subway station...
Stouffville: Terminate at either Kennedy or Danforth for B/D Subway access...
Richmond Hill: Total shutdown with added bus connections to the Finch/Yonge Subway Station or terminate at Oriole for Sheppard Subway connection nearby at Leslie.
I realize that none of these alternate routes is really a good alternative to Union Station if it is closed and I did not think about what VIA Rail Canada would do as there is basically almost no alternative for them that makes sense if Union Station is closed...
In NYC the 2004 Republican National Convention was held at Madison Square Garden above Penn Station. Despite calls to close Penn Station it was deemed to be too vital to NYC for this to be done and the response was limited access to the station and the deployment of police all over that area of Midtown Manhattan that included having police ride practically all trains in and out of Penn Station and the station becoming heavily guarded inside and out. Many commuters anticipated problems and ridership fell off upwards of 50 percent on both the LIRR and NJ Transit commuter rail lines into PSNY.
If the same thought is made concerning Union Station expect changes like sections being closed or restricted and for security there to be very tight with a high police presence. I now wonder if many regular commuters will anticipate problems and the GO commuter ridership will fall substantially...
Insight and Thoughts from Long Island Mike
P.S. To the Moderator: Can this topic be added also to the Transportation section for further discussion?
Everyone: Reading the recent post about the closing of the CN Tower and the move of Blue Jays games out of the Rogers Skydome during the G-20 Summit makes me wonder about the fate of those who commute and travel to Union Station by GO and VIA during that period...
It reminds me of what happened in Boston and NY City in 2004 when the Democratic and Republican National Conventions were meeting
and the high levels of security that was in place for them at a time when anxiety was still high...
In Boston the 2004 Democratic National Convention was held at the Fleet Center(now TD Banknorth Garden)and North Station below it was closed for the duration forcing those who use the four MBTA commuter lines serving it and Amtrak's Downeaster rail service to Portland,Maine to outlying stations for MBTA Rapid Transit into Boston and I also recall that the Orange and Green line rapid transit station there was closed.
If the same situation was applied to Toronto I came up with these alternate access points: GO Transit Rail-
Lakeshore West: Exhibition for streetcar or bus connection to Downtown or Long Branch for the TTC 501 and 508 streetcar routes...
Lakeshore East: Danforth for Bloor/Danforth Subway nearby...
Milton-Kipling Subway for B/D line...
Georgetown and Newmarket: Terminates at Bloor GO Station connecting to Dundas West Subway station...
Stouffville: Terminate at either Kennedy or Danforth for B/D Subway access...
Richmond Hill: Total shutdown with added bus connections to the Finch/Yonge Subway Station or terminate at Oriole for Sheppard Subway connection nearby at Leslie.
I realize that none of these alternate routes is really a good alternative to Union Station if it is closed and I did not think about what VIA Rail Canada would do as there is basically almost no alternative for them that makes sense if Union Station is closed...
In NYC the 2004 Republican National Convention was held at Madison Square Garden above Penn Station. Despite calls to close Penn Station it was deemed to be too vital to NYC for this to be done and the response was limited access to the station and the deployment of police all over that area of Midtown Manhattan that included having police ride practically all trains in and out of Penn Station and the station becoming heavily guarded inside and out. Many commuters anticipated problems and ridership fell off upwards of 50 percent on both the LIRR and NJ Transit commuter rail lines into PSNY.
If the same thought is made concerning Union Station expect changes like sections being closed or restricted and for security there to be very tight with a high police presence. I now wonder if many regular commuters will anticipate problems and the GO commuter ridership will fall substantially...
Insight and Thoughts from Long Island Mike
P.S. To the Moderator: Can this topic be added also to the Transportation section for further discussion?
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Eug
Senior Member
alklay
Senior Member
I feel sorry for the protesters who have legitimate issues to protest about, and who do not act out using violence (as their messages get lost).
bleeepbluuup
Active Member
khris
Senior Member
*phew* I'm just outside the zone!
G
gabe
Guest
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100527/national/g20_sound_cannons
Pain in the eardrum: Sound cannons at G20
Thu May 27, 12:53 PM
By Colin Perkel, The Canadian Press
TORONTO - The addition of sound cannons to the arsenal available to security forces managing G20 protests comes as no surprise to groups planning to demonstrate in Toronto at next month's summit.
They say it's just one more signal amid an unprecedented security operation that dissenting voices are being muzzled.
"We were expecting the use of sound cannons, sound grenades, Tasers, tear gas — they've been used in the past against Canadian protesters," Sharmeen Khan, spokeswoman for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, said Thursday.
"We definitely are concerned that this will scare people away."
The sound cannons are capable of emitting ear-piercing and hearing-damaging alerts, not unlike that of a smoke detector, that can be heard up to 1.5 kilometres away.
Formally known as long-range acoustical devices, they can also be used to broadcast pre-recorded and other messages to protesters.
"It will allow our officers to speak to the crowd over and above chanting, yelling, screaming — noise that is most commonly part of protests," said Const. Wendy Drummond, spokeswoman for Toronto police.
"It will allow us to communicate, most effectively, our demands to the crowd."
Toronto police have purchased four of the devices — three hand-held and one mounted — from Vancouver-based Current Corp.
The devices — some call them weapons — use an array of tweeters familiar to any hi-fi enthusiast that work in tandem to produce the high volume levels.
They can be pointed at specific targets to minimize the impact on bystanders and have been used around the world for a variety of functions, including against protesters at last year's G20 summit in Pittsburgh.
While the sound cannons can cause hearing damage, police said they planned to follow both manufacturer and internal guidelines in their use, including firing alert bursts of only two to three seconds.
Toronto police bought the devices as part of the $1-billion security effort Canadian authorities are mounting to try to ensure the G8 and G20 summits run smoothly.
The Council of Canadians said Wednesday it would give away earplugs during the G20 to protect people from permanent hearing loss.
"Saying a sound cannon is a tool for communications is like saying waterboarding isn't torture, just a tool for encouraging dialogue," said spokesman Mark Calzavara.
Canada is no stranger to ugly clashes between security forces and protesters.
The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP concluded the Mounties used "excessive and unjustified force" to disperse protesters at the 2001 Summit of the Americas in Quebec.
The RCMP was also forced to admit it botched security planning for the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation summit in Vancouver in 1997, leading to the pepper-spraying of crowds of protesters and 42 arrests.
Those who want to protest peacefully fret their rights to do so are taking a back seat to the massive security deployment and that may only serve to provoke anger and violence.
"It is a clear indication that people's rights to assemble just aren't a priority," said Khan, who stressed that most protesters had no plans to bring any kind of weapons to their demonstrations.
"I get surprised when people talk about violence from the protesters and not state-sanctioned violence from the police or private security."
Calzavara said Pittsburgh police used sound cannons to "assault" protesters.
The devices are meant to "intimidate people and make them too scared to protest," he said.
Those involved with security planning are making no apologies.
"This is the largest security event that Canada has ever had," Drummond said.
"We are expecting a large amount of peoplein our downtown core . . . just the sheer numbers alone make it a huge event."
The G20 summit in Toronto runs June 26-27.
Pain in the eardrum: Sound cannons at G20
Thu May 27, 12:53 PM
By Colin Perkel, The Canadian Press
TORONTO - The addition of sound cannons to the arsenal available to security forces managing G20 protests comes as no surprise to groups planning to demonstrate in Toronto at next month's summit.
They say it's just one more signal amid an unprecedented security operation that dissenting voices are being muzzled.
"We were expecting the use of sound cannons, sound grenades, Tasers, tear gas — they've been used in the past against Canadian protesters," Sharmeen Khan, spokeswoman for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, said Thursday.
"We definitely are concerned that this will scare people away."
The sound cannons are capable of emitting ear-piercing and hearing-damaging alerts, not unlike that of a smoke detector, that can be heard up to 1.5 kilometres away.
Formally known as long-range acoustical devices, they can also be used to broadcast pre-recorded and other messages to protesters.
"It will allow our officers to speak to the crowd over and above chanting, yelling, screaming — noise that is most commonly part of protests," said Const. Wendy Drummond, spokeswoman for Toronto police.
"It will allow us to communicate, most effectively, our demands to the crowd."
Toronto police have purchased four of the devices — three hand-held and one mounted — from Vancouver-based Current Corp.
The devices — some call them weapons — use an array of tweeters familiar to any hi-fi enthusiast that work in tandem to produce the high volume levels.
They can be pointed at specific targets to minimize the impact on bystanders and have been used around the world for a variety of functions, including against protesters at last year's G20 summit in Pittsburgh.
While the sound cannons can cause hearing damage, police said they planned to follow both manufacturer and internal guidelines in their use, including firing alert bursts of only two to three seconds.
Toronto police bought the devices as part of the $1-billion security effort Canadian authorities are mounting to try to ensure the G8 and G20 summits run smoothly.
The Council of Canadians said Wednesday it would give away earplugs during the G20 to protect people from permanent hearing loss.
"Saying a sound cannon is a tool for communications is like saying waterboarding isn't torture, just a tool for encouraging dialogue," said spokesman Mark Calzavara.
Canada is no stranger to ugly clashes between security forces and protesters.
The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP concluded the Mounties used "excessive and unjustified force" to disperse protesters at the 2001 Summit of the Americas in Quebec.
The RCMP was also forced to admit it botched security planning for the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation summit in Vancouver in 1997, leading to the pepper-spraying of crowds of protesters and 42 arrests.
Those who want to protest peacefully fret their rights to do so are taking a back seat to the massive security deployment and that may only serve to provoke anger and violence.
"It is a clear indication that people's rights to assemble just aren't a priority," said Khan, who stressed that most protesters had no plans to bring any kind of weapons to their demonstrations.
"I get surprised when people talk about violence from the protesters and not state-sanctioned violence from the police or private security."
Calzavara said Pittsburgh police used sound cannons to "assault" protesters.
The devices are meant to "intimidate people and make them too scared to protest," he said.
Those involved with security planning are making no apologies.
"This is the largest security event that Canada has ever had," Drummond said.
"We are expecting a large amount of peoplein our downtown core . . . just the sheer numbers alone make it a huge event."
The G20 summit in Toronto runs June 26-27.
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
i can honestly say that even though these meetings are good for fostering relations between a group of countries, the way they choose to hold these meetings damages the reputation of the hosting country in the eyes of others.
the images of how the protesters will be dealt with by security and how the protesters will conduct themselves will be broadcast worldwide. those images won't be appealing and will do no good for our country.
since the protesters will be far away from the meetings and have their protest broadcast to the meeting place, they might as well have had this meeting in a far away isolated spot.
the images of how the protesters will be dealt with by security and how the protesters will conduct themselves will be broadcast worldwide. those images won't be appealing and will do no good for our country.
since the protesters will be far away from the meetings and have their protest broadcast to the meeting place, they might as well have had this meeting in a far away isolated spot.
Eug
Senior Member
Well, isn't that the point?
cfloryan
Here
This meeting's turning into pure idiocy. $900 million, closing off a chunk of downtown, sound cannons and security cameras. As much of a gung-ho capitalist, G-20 fan I may be, I can't see the benefits of this meeting exceeding the costs.
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