[crs1026]

I've asked this before, but I'll ask it again.....

Why do we need to have a grade separation/flyover to move the GO operations to the north side of the corridor? It strikes me as being better in the long-term to keep the GO runs on the south side of the corridor (and therefore negate the reason for flying the GO trains over to the north side), even if that means paying a bit more up front to build more platform faces.

Dan

A very good question.... if nothing else, building the flyover out around Lisgar where there is more room and cheaper land might make sense.

- Paul

 

[hw621]

Saw this site at Centennial Station today. Seems that they are digging into the ground. What's happening here?View attachment 535053View attachment 535054

I found out what they are doing here...

 

[SaugeenJunction]

With all the talk recently about bringing all-day service to the Milton Line, I started looking into the infra along the corridor.

It seems to me that given the feds have already offered to fund half of a $1.2 billion infrastructure improvement, the obvious path forward is to create a phased implementation plan of which the first phase costs $1.2 billion, so the two governments can stop bickering and start building.

So the question then is: what viable first phase could we build for $1.2 billion, while meeting CPKC's requirements to not have any at-grade crossings or any shared track with freight?

Here are the level crossings along the line currently:

Level crossings in orange, grade separations in green
View attachment 540456

A big part of the budget will be blown on a rail-to-rail grade separation somewhere between West Toronto Diamond and Kipling, so there won't be much left over for grade separations. Grade--separating through Streetsville will be a huge obstacle so there's no way we'd get through that within the budget. But we could probably get as far as Cooksville and maybe as far as Erindale in the first phase. A regular off-peak train service from Union to Cooksville could be a useful express alternative to the subway+transitway service. Removing the existing at-grade conflict between peak-direction Milton trains and CPKC trains could potentially be used as a bargaining chip to permit a couple counter-peak trips all the way to Milton.

To save on track costs, the initial phase could include a mix of single and double track on the passenger line, e.g. for 30-minute headways, while protecting for the full double track to be added in future phases.

While work is underway on the $1.2B first phase, planning can continue on the challening subsequent phase that would extend the dedicated passenger tracks through Streetsville.

I don't think CPKC is interested in phasing the work, or that Metrolinx gets to pick and choose this stuff. My understanding is if upgrades are happening, its the whole thing now or nothing.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Geotech work on the Canpa Sub (notice is incorrectly labelled Milton). Presumably for the massive construction yard being built.

Geotechnical Investigative Work within the Milton Rail Corridor

 

[JasonParis]

My parents look at the bridge over the Humber on the Milton Line from their condo. Honest question from them (that I don't have the answer for)... does this mean that the bridge will be twinned?

 

[Northern Light]

My parents look at the bridge over the Humber on the Milton Line from their condo. Honest question from them (that I don't have the answer for)... does this mean that the bridge will be twinned?

It is likely that there would an additional bridge; though possible they might just widen the piers there now. It currently has two tracks on it. If 15M GO service is contemplated, they are not running that and CPKC on just the existing bridge, as-is.

 

[smallspy]

Isn't one factor that CP has a small yard on the south side between Milton and Lisgar?

How is that any different from the small yard on the north side in Streetsville?

There are lots of ways to skin that cat, but I can't see how a single, small facility - that isn't even used that much anymore - can be an impediment to better operation.

Dan

 

[JasonParis]

It is likely that there would an additional bridge; though possible they might just widen the piers there now. It currently has two tracks on it. If 15M GO service is contemplated, they are not running that and CPKC on just the existing bridge, as-is.

I may need to teach my mom how to use Urban Toronto then to post pics!

 

[Bojaxs]

How is that any different from the small yard on the north side in Streetsville?

There are lots of ways to skin that cat, but I can't see how a single, small facility - that isn't even used that much anymore - can be an impediment to better operation.

Dan

I have a feeling CPKC wants to hold on to their Milton Yard and it's specific location right off of Trafalgar to act as a surplus container yard for when the Vaughan yard reaches full capacity.

Their Milton yard is close to a lot of new warehouses and right off of the 401.

 

[reaperexpress]

I've asked this before, but I'll ask it again.....

Why do we need to have a grade separation/flyover to move the GO operations to the north side of the corridor? It strikes me as being better in the long-term to keep the GO runs on the south side of the corridor (and therefore negate the reason for flying the GO trains over to the north side), even if that means paying a bit more up front to build more platform faces.

Dan

Because all of the stations are future-proofed for a track configuration where GO has 2 dedicated tracks on the north side and CPKC has 2 dedicated tracks on the south side. See below how the full buildout would look:

Kipling Station (no changes. The corridor is already quad-tracked)

Dixie Station (1 new track on the north side)

Cooksville Station (2 new tracks, one on each side)

Erindale Station (1 new track on the north side; new side platform). Or alternatively, 1 new track on the south side

Streetsville station (2 new tracks on the south side)

Meadowvale Station (2 new tracks, one on each side)

Lisgar station (2 new tracks, one on each side)

CPKC Milton Yard (2 additional tracks; no changes to yard access)

GO Milton yard (2 additional tracks; no changes to yard access)

Milton station (1 new track on the north side)

If GO uses the northern pair of tracks, the only significant station construction required would be to add pedestrian tunnels/bridges at Dixie, Lisgar and Milton stations. The existing pedestrian bridges/tunnels at Kipling, Cooksville, Erindale, Streetsville and Meadowvale would not need to be modified at all.
I think it's clear from the overhead images that relocating all the platforms, pedestrian bridges/tunnels, and the Milton GO yard to the south side of the corridor and relocating the Milton CP yard to the north side of the corridor would be far more expensive than just adding additional tracks with the existing platform and yard configurations.

Meanwhile at the Humber River, a new bridge is required regardless of whether it is part of a rail-to-rail grade separation.

I suspect that sum of the costs to completely rebuild every station, build a new CP yard on the north side and build a new GO yard on the south side would be more than the net cost of building the new Humber River bridge such that the passenger line swaps sides with the GO line.

If it turns out that the sum of all that stuff is still cheaper than the net cost to swap sides at the Humber then yes the right solution is indeed to completely rebuild the entire corridor with platforms on the southern pair of tracks.

 

[nfitz]

I don't think CPKC is interested in phasing the work, or that Metrolinx gets to pick and choose this stuff. My understanding is if upgrades are happening, its the whole thing now or nothing.

Why would CPKC care that the two-way all-day service is phased or not?

The big question is how far can they get for $1.6 billion. Dixie? Cooksville? Erindale?

Cooksville and intersecting with Line 10 would be a decent enough start. That's farther east of Union than Bramalea, which is where Kitchener Line service increases started.

Would they ever even need to go for all-day service out to Milton? I'd think an express bus on HOV lanes down the 401 would be good enough for now.

Do we even know what the province priced for there mega $billions number? They could have priced it all the way to Galt for all we know.

 

[T3G]

Would they ever even need to go for all-day service out to Milton? I'd think an express bus on HOV lanes down the 401 would be good enough for now.

That depends... how frequently does this bus run, and where?

I would certainly welcome all day service, and would feel swindled if it cut off in the middle in Missisauga.

 

[crs1026]

A flyover is not the end of the world cost wise. A useful benchmark might be the Davenport Diamond flyover, which came in at a cost of about $200M. A two-track flyover between, say, Runnymede and Scarlett roads - similar earth ramps at either end, and a much shorter middle section zigging over the CP yard and reaching maximum elevation at Jane - would fit in this space.

I suspect ML and CP have all sorts of cost and scenarios of this sort, we are really second guessing here. I will say again, however, that so many of the grade separations along this line already have a third or fourth track width roughed in....one wonders if a design could be found that utilised many of these, and avoided some of the obvious higher-cost items... and what that design would permit, CP willing.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

That depends... how frequently does this bus run, and where?

The four different bus routes (21, 25, 27, and 29, that currently stop in Milton, already all run about 2 buses an hour for much of the daytime; that's 8 buses an hour.

I'd think you'd do every 15 minutes from downtown Milton and through Milton GO.

I would certainly welcome all day service, and would feel swindled if it cut off in the middle in Mississauga.

I agree. If I had my druthers, I'd run them all just into Toronto and Renforth station - perhaps using the 407/403/Transitway - maybe even extend to Kipling ... though perhaps by then there'll be an Ontario-line like link from Kipling to Renforth. Alternatively, if the Milton GO line got to Cooksville, run them all to Cooksville.

Metrolinx could go back to an earlier plan of theirs, and build a link on the Milton Line to Square One. That would only require 2-way all-day service to a point somewhere between Carlaw and Hurontario, before going into the tunnel segment.

Then you have 2 Milton branches for GO. The current one with peak only. And the new one that only stops at Kipling, Dixie, and Square One. Maybe add a station at Cawthra and at West Mall.

There's a lot you can do major with 2-waying all the way to Streetsville. Or Milton. Or Galt.

 

[T3G]

The four different bus routes (21, 25, 27, and 29, that currently stop in Milton, already all run about 2 buses an hour for much of the daytime; that's 8 buses an hour.

I'd think you'd do every 15 minutes from downtown Milton and through Milton GO.

Fair, but for the purposes of the discussion I intentionally left out the 25 and the 29 as they wouldn't be affected in any way by all day service, while the other two would as they travel into Toronto.

The 27 is fairly good for the most part. The 21 is an utter shambles. The hourly frequency after 11 am is terrible (it is worse heading back north, as the Oakville-bound schedules are designed to get there around 10 minutes before the inbound LW train, but there is no such coordination in the reverse direction), as is the 4-5 hour "break" it takes during rush hour. Cutting the service between Milton and Oakville back in 2019 was a huge mistake and I am glad that they undid it, but the actual level of service offered leaves much to be desired. The trip through Oakville is a little milk-runny and it would be nice if it got onto an HEV lane on the highway as soon as it left the town, but it would be something I could put up with if it ran more frequently.