AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Actually I think at that depth you'd be hitting the shale bedrock near the lake.
AoD
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- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
Actually I think at that depth you'd be hitting the shale bedrock near the lake.
AoD
ssiguy2
Senior Member
What you don't want to do is create a better system that all Torontonians could use but stifle the traditional GO trains with so many stops that long distance commuters begin to avoid it.
It should be worked that all Torontonians can use the standard GO rail stations with their TTC pass but there should be fewer GO rail stations. Except for Union and maybe Bloor West, there should only be one stop in the city of Toronto for inbound trains, usually the first one. The more inner-city GO RER system for Torontonians themselves could be more frequent so, for example, if you are coming in from Kitchener and you wanted to go to Eglinton, you would get off at Etobiko North and transfer onto to a RER train at the same platform bound for a RER Eglinton station. Seriously, how many 905ers get off at Weston............10 people per train?
They could even do one better and have no stops in Toronto unless they hook with a subway and be non-stop once they hit the Toronto city limits. Have the RER go in every direction with their terminus at the first station outside Toronto city boundaries. Anyone not going to Union gets off and transfer onto the RER and everyone else gets a very fast and comfortable trip to Union.
Torontonians would get far superior service and the speed of GO 905 commuter trains would greatly increase and, until electrified, save a hell of a lot in fuel as most of the costs are starting/stopping. Also by having different trains for GO and Toronto RER, the trains will be far easier to unload, especially if the RER are one-level EMU......................it is MUCH faster and easier to unload 2 trains with 500 people each, 5 minutes apart than it is to empty one bilevel train with a 1000 passengers.
Seriously, how many 905ers are going anywhere but Union? For those that are they can get off at the first Toronto GO/RER station. It would ensure the GO commuter trains won't have a lot of standees as they are not made for them and would greatly increase speed for 905 trips to Union.
It should be worked that all Torontonians can use the standard GO rail stations with their TTC pass but there should be fewer GO rail stations. Except for Union and maybe Bloor West, there should only be one stop in the city of Toronto for inbound trains, usually the first one. The more inner-city GO RER system for Torontonians themselves could be more frequent so, for example, if you are coming in from Kitchener and you wanted to go to Eglinton, you would get off at Etobiko North and transfer onto to a RER train at the same platform bound for a RER Eglinton station. Seriously, how many 905ers get off at Weston............10 people per train?
They could even do one better and have no stops in Toronto unless they hook with a subway and be non-stop once they hit the Toronto city limits. Have the RER go in every direction with their terminus at the first station outside Toronto city boundaries. Anyone not going to Union gets off and transfer onto the RER and everyone else gets a very fast and comfortable trip to Union.
Torontonians would get far superior service and the speed of GO 905 commuter trains would greatly increase and, until electrified, save a hell of a lot in fuel as most of the costs are starting/stopping. Also by having different trains for GO and Toronto RER, the trains will be far easier to unload, especially if the RER are one-level EMU......................it is MUCH faster and easier to unload 2 trains with 500 people each, 5 minutes apart than it is to empty one bilevel train with a 1000 passengers.
Seriously, how many 905ers are going anywhere but Union? For those that are they can get off at the first Toronto GO/RER station. It would ensure the GO commuter trains won't have a lot of standees as they are not made for them and would greatly increase speed for 905 trips to Union.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Only in Toronto do we use some sort of uniqueness in our environment as an excuse to not do something as opposed to finding a solution to do something.
We are not that unique that we can not implement strategies that have been successful in other locations.
We are not that unique that we can not implement strategies that have been successful in other locations.
Solid Snake
Active Member
*Edit* of Toronto GO RER Stations
Lakeshore East
-Danforth & Warden
-Better integration (if possible) between Main Subway Station and Danforth GO Station
Long Long escalator corridor at Chatelet in Paris connecting Subways and Trains
-Riverdale (Gerrard & Carlaw)
-Queen East
Union Station Lakeshore plateform
The RER station at Chatelet Les Halles in Paris is a good model if Metrolinx proceeds with their tunnel project
Charles de Gaulle RER
Lakeshore West
-Fort York (Bathurst)
-Roncesvalles & Queensway
-Humber Loop
-Kipling
Kitchener
-Fort York (Bathurst)
-Liberty Village (King)
-Parkdale (Dufferin & Queen)
-Stockyard District (St.Clair & Weston)
-Mount Dennis Crosstown (Eglinton & Weston)
Milton
-Fort York (Bathurst)
-Liberty Village (King)
-Parkdale (Dufferin & Queen)
-St.Clair & Jane
Could Spark the extension of the St.Clair Streetcar
Barrie
-Dupont
-Caledonia Crosstown Station
-Downsview Park Station
(I didn't put any stations between Downsview Park and Eglinton due to the proximity to the Spadina line. People who wish to go to Wilson, Lawrence can get off at Downsview Park, which will keep the line fast)
-Close York University
Richmond Hill
-Close Oriole Station and move it to Leslie subway station on the Sheppard line
-Close Old Cummer and open Finch & Leslie
Stouffville
No new stations
*As mention before, fares within Toronto MUST be identical to the TTC otherwise, GO RER will never reach it's full potential
**Feel free to add and remove stations or criticize
Lakeshore East
-Danforth & Warden
-Better integration (if possible) between Main Subway Station and Danforth GO Station
Long Long escalator corridor at Chatelet in Paris connecting Subways and Trains
-Riverdale (Gerrard & Carlaw)
-Queen East
Union Station Lakeshore plateform
The RER station at Chatelet Les Halles in Paris is a good model if Metrolinx proceeds with their tunnel project
Charles de Gaulle RER
Lakeshore West
-Fort York (Bathurst)
-Roncesvalles & Queensway
-Humber Loop
-Kipling
Kitchener
-Fort York (Bathurst)
-Liberty Village (King)
-Parkdale (Dufferin & Queen)
-Stockyard District (St.Clair & Weston)
-Mount Dennis Crosstown (Eglinton & Weston)
Milton
-Fort York (Bathurst)
-Liberty Village (King)
-Parkdale (Dufferin & Queen)
-St.Clair & Jane
Could Spark the extension of the St.Clair Streetcar
Barrie
-Dupont
-Caledonia Crosstown Station
-Downsview Park Station
(I didn't put any stations between Downsview Park and Eglinton due to the proximity to the Spadina line. People who wish to go to Wilson, Lawrence can get off at Downsview Park, which will keep the line fast)
-Close York University
Richmond Hill
-Close Oriole Station and move it to Leslie subway station on the Sheppard line
-Close Old Cummer and open Finch & Leslie
Stouffville
No new stations
*As mention before, fares within Toronto MUST be identical to the TTC otherwise, GO RER will never reach it's full potential
**Feel free to add and remove stations or criticize
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nfitz
Superstar
Is it? As an ignorant tourist, I once made the mistake of changing from Line B to Line 7 there (what can I say ... seemed like the quickest way to Pont Neuf from Gare du Nord) ... it felt like I walked forever. I read later on that the transfer is about 0.75 km. That's the distance from University to Spadina! And three times the distance from Main Street station to Danforth GO station, that many seem to think is too far.
It's quite an achievement in some ways, but it's not as well integrated as one might hope. Also I found the platforms quite dreary. Lots of exposed concrete, and the feeling of a multi-platform Manhattan subway statoin, and a surprising amount of graffiti! Though I found graffiti as a whole in Paris much worse than I've noticed in Toronto, London, or New York City. Perhaps not so much in volume, but as in where it is ... in stations past the fare barrier ... heck, someone had even tagged a holocaust memorial.
though perhaps ultimately, it is a complex like this that we'd have in Toronto, with new underground Lakeshore platforms running from Yonge to Church, and walkways leading from there, up Yonge to King, back to Union, and to a DRL somewhere along Wellington or something ...
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
The column supports for the train tracks do rest on bedrock, so if the tunnels go beneath the trainshed area, they would be in bedrock. Of course they would have to be quite far down, and we don't know how stable that formation is. And yes, the access for vertical movement would be have to be extensive and complicated. But I haven't seen anything to suggest it would be too unusual or difficult to contemplate.
The sketches I recall seeing had a single track per direction, but each widening to two tracks with an island platform in the station. That would provide a lot of capacity and allow for long dwell times. Because the stations would be long, there could be multiple access points (Yonge, Bay, York).
toraerach
Active Member
Wouldn't Bloor make more sense than Dupont? Presumably, a tunnel could be built under Wade Ave. connecting the new GO station to the subway at Lansdowne. With frequent service, the Barrie line with stations at Bloor and Eglinton could provide a West End rapid transit connection between the Eglinton LRT and the B-D Subway.
Solid Snake
Active Member
-Since The Barrie line connects with the Spadina line at Downsview Park Station which is still a fast and efficient way to get to the Bloor line using a route that isn't at capacity even during peak hours
-In the eventuality of a GO station at Mount Dennis Crosstown station, those who wish to access the western part of the Bloor line could do so on the Kitchener line since Mt.Dennis is only 2 stops away from Caledonia Crosstown station which connects with the Barrie line.
That's the same reason I didn't have a St.Clair Station on the Barrie line do to it's proximity to the Kitchener line at a possible Stockyard Station at St.Clair and Weston.
-I picked Dupont because there's a east-west rail road that could potentially be used for rapid transit
-The connection to Landsdowne Station seems redundant do to GO Bloor station that's next door.
jamincan
Active Member
I don't believe the overburden is that deep in the CBD. There are undoubtably places where it is in Toronto (notably linked to the Laurentian River channel), but I don't believe it gets more than about 10m deep in that area. I imagine that a tunnel under Union Station would be in the bedrock by default in that case, though it might not be very strong bedrock.
diminutive
Active Member
I think what's really idiosyncratic is the assumption that we can never unload and load a commuter train in less than 10 minutes or a VIA train in less than 30 minutes, and that we need a multi billion dollar tunnel to fix that.
I can't think of a single city on earth which has built a tunnel under a perfectly functional railway station and corridor. Usually the cities which have built these commuter tunnels did so because historical rail terminals didn't connect with each-other (e.g. Paris) or serve the CBD well, neither of which apply to Toronto at all.
ShonTron
Moderator
Agreed. One such approach should include more through-running of more trains (Lakeshore, pair Milton or Georgetown/Kitchener with Stouffville or Richmond Hill). When possible, trains should not terminate and reverse at Union Station but continue onwards or reverse at Bathurst or Don Yards, reducing dwell times in the station.
Philadelphia is the best example I can think of, where the Reading and Pennsylvania Railroad networks were connected using a 4-track downtown tunnel, thereby through-routing most of its regional rail.
Absurdly, the East Side Access, the LIRR connection into Grand Central Terminal in New York requires it to build new tracks and platforms below the existing Terminal, even though there's lots of track capacity and LIRR and Metro-North (which uses/owns GCT) are part of the same organization (MTA). There's one city that is building a tunnel and new terminal under a perfectly functional railway station and corridor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Side_Access
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MrsNesbitt
Active Member
I think we still need to be cautious about negating the speed benefits of GO REX (seriously, I don't understand why the marketing benefits of a name like "REX" are being overlooked with the choice of "RER") with too many stations. A few, in my opinion, should be added, but largely the number should remain close to what it is now (let's also take the time to modernize and update all of our existing stations. BUS LOOPS PLEASE.) Then we can build LRT to serve wider-reaching areas and connect more neighbourhoods to their nearest GO REX station. Subways can serve the same function, only faster and underground, and only because they are where they exist already.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
? most GO stations have bus loops. Hell, Some stations have way more than required. Lincolnville has 4 stalls and only 2 of them are used, for example.
Most lines are fine for stations, I'd like to see only 1 or 2 added on each line, except for maybe Barrie.
Lakeshore east:
Broadview Avenue (Toronto)
Salem Road (Ajax)
Thornton Road (Oshawa)
Simcoe Street (Oshawa)
CLOSE Oshawa GO
Lakeshore West:
Park Lawn Road (Toronto)
Milton:
Jane Street (Toronto)
Bloor GO
Liberty Village (Toronto)
Kitchener:
Eglinton Avenue (Toronto)
Breslau (Kitchener) - I think this one is already happening as part of the additional Kitchener trains in 2016
Liberty Village (Toronto)
Barrie:
Bloor (Toronto)
Eglinton (Toronto)
Highway 7 (Vaughan)
Innisfil
Richmond Hill:
Bloor (Toronto)
Eglinton (Toronto)
Relocated Oriole (Toronto)
Gamble Road
Stouffville:
Bayview Avenue (Toronto)
Danforth GO
Scarborough GO
Extensions:
Niagara:
this would run an additional 15 minute service on top of Lakeshore West. the "traditional" lakeshore west service would run from Aldershot to Oshawa, with another 15 minute service running semi express from Hamilton (Making stops as Oakville, Port Credit, Exhibition, and Union Station) with regular stop spacing past Hamilton.
the Niagara extension would include:
James North GO (Hamilton)
Centennial Parkway (Hamilton)
Grimsby
St. Catherines
Niagara
Uxbridge:
Just a single peak service stop in Uxbridge. build a 3 or 4 train yard there and run peak express haulers out of it.
Brantford
Put a 4 - 6 train yard in Brantford and run peak express haulers out of it, stations at Brantford and Dundas.
Bowmanville
Put a 6 - 8 train yard in Bowmanville and run peak express haulers out of it, with 15 minute service reaching the first two stations in Oshawa.
Bowmanville
Courtice Road (Oshawa)
Simcoe Street (Oshawa)
Thornton Road (Oshawa)
Cambridge
Put a 4 - 6 train yard in Cambridge and run peak express haulers out of it.
Orangeville
Put a 3 train yard in Orangeville and run peak express haulers out of it, with an additional 2 or 3 trains being added to the service once it reaches Brampton. Semi express service once it hits the Milton corridor, only stopping at Cooksville and Bloor before reaching Union
Orangeville
Mayfield Road (Brampton)
Bovaird Road (Brampton)
Brampton GO
Chincguacousey Road (Brampton)
Creditview Road (Mississauga)
Bolton
Put a 4 - 6 train yard in Bolton and run peak express haulers out of it, running semi express once it hits the Kitchener corridor, stopping at only Bloor street before reaching Union
Bolton
Langstaff Road (Vaughan)
Highway 7 (Vaughan)
Finch Avenue (Toronto)
Wilson Avenue (Toronto)
Most lines are fine for stations, I'd like to see only 1 or 2 added on each line, except for maybe Barrie.
Lakeshore east:
Broadview Avenue (Toronto)
Salem Road (Ajax)
Thornton Road (Oshawa)
Simcoe Street (Oshawa)
CLOSE Oshawa GO
Lakeshore West:
Park Lawn Road (Toronto)
Milton:
Jane Street (Toronto)
Bloor GO
Liberty Village (Toronto)
Kitchener:
Eglinton Avenue (Toronto)
Breslau (Kitchener) - I think this one is already happening as part of the additional Kitchener trains in 2016
Liberty Village (Toronto)
Barrie:
Bloor (Toronto)
Eglinton (Toronto)
Highway 7 (Vaughan)
Innisfil
Richmond Hill:
Bloor (Toronto)
Eglinton (Toronto)
Relocated Oriole (Toronto)
Gamble Road
Stouffville:
Bayview Avenue (Toronto)
Danforth GO
Scarborough GO
Extensions:
Niagara:
this would run an additional 15 minute service on top of Lakeshore West. the "traditional" lakeshore west service would run from Aldershot to Oshawa, with another 15 minute service running semi express from Hamilton (Making stops as Oakville, Port Credit, Exhibition, and Union Station) with regular stop spacing past Hamilton.
the Niagara extension would include:
James North GO (Hamilton)
Centennial Parkway (Hamilton)
Grimsby
St. Catherines
Niagara
Uxbridge:
Just a single peak service stop in Uxbridge. build a 3 or 4 train yard there and run peak express haulers out of it.
Brantford
Put a 4 - 6 train yard in Brantford and run peak express haulers out of it, stations at Brantford and Dundas.
Bowmanville
Put a 6 - 8 train yard in Bowmanville and run peak express haulers out of it, with 15 minute service reaching the first two stations in Oshawa.
Bowmanville
Courtice Road (Oshawa)
Simcoe Street (Oshawa)
Thornton Road (Oshawa)
Cambridge
Put a 4 - 6 train yard in Cambridge and run peak express haulers out of it.
Orangeville
Put a 3 train yard in Orangeville and run peak express haulers out of it, with an additional 2 or 3 trains being added to the service once it reaches Brampton. Semi express service once it hits the Milton corridor, only stopping at Cooksville and Bloor before reaching Union
Orangeville
Mayfield Road (Brampton)
Bovaird Road (Brampton)
Brampton GO
Chincguacousey Road (Brampton)
Creditview Road (Mississauga)
Bolton
Put a 4 - 6 train yard in Bolton and run peak express haulers out of it, running semi express once it hits the Kitchener corridor, stopping at only Bloor street before reaching Union
Bolton
Langstaff Road (Vaughan)
Highway 7 (Vaughan)
Finch Avenue (Toronto)
Wilson Avenue (Toronto)
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MrsNesbitt
Active Member
I'm talking about GO stations inside the City of Toronto. As in the ones where TTC buses just drop you off on the street due to their fiefdom mentality.
ShonTron
Moderator
Insert name:
I'm always skeptical about plans to run GO trains to Orangeville. I've said it several times here before - the OBRY alignment, especially north of King Street/Cheltenham can not compete with Highway 10 for speed. It's slow, winding (and scenic). Even in the line's heyday when CP ran daily passenger trains on the corridor (prior to the 1960s, when it went to a 3x/weekly RDC service before being eliminated entirely in 1970) trains would be limited in speed through Caledon. There's a feasible opportunity for a spur from the Kitchener Line up to Mayfield or King Street, but no further.
As for Milton, I'd like to see a station at Trafalgar Road. Ideally, I'd like to see a station closer to Downtown Milton as well with minimal parking, but don't really see it happening.
I'm always skeptical about plans to run GO trains to Orangeville. I've said it several times here before - the OBRY alignment, especially north of King Street/Cheltenham can not compete with Highway 10 for speed. It's slow, winding (and scenic). Even in the line's heyday when CP ran daily passenger trains on the corridor (prior to the 1960s, when it went to a 3x/weekly RDC service before being eliminated entirely in 1970) trains would be limited in speed through Caledon. There's a feasible opportunity for a spur from the Kitchener Line up to Mayfield or King Street, but no further.
As for Milton, I'd like to see a station at Trafalgar Road. Ideally, I'd like to see a station closer to Downtown Milton as well with minimal parking, but don't really see it happening.