[diminutive]

I think we still need to be cautious about negating the speed benefits of GO REX (seriously, I don't understand why the marketing benefits of a name like "REX" are being overlooked with the choice of "RER") with too many stations. A few, in my opinion, should be added, but largely the number should remain close to what it is now (let's also take the time to modernize and update all of our existing stations. BUS LOOPS PLEASE.) Then we can build LRT to serve wider-reaching areas and connect more neighbourhoods to their nearest GO REX station. Subways can serve the same function, only faster and underground, and only because they are where they exist already.

There is a hidden cost to this kind of speed though in that it just increases access times.

For most commuter rail operations in N.A. it's not a big deal to have very wide stop spacing since most customers drive to the station anyways, which eases access time penalties arising from infrequent stations.

But if you expect most passengers to reach GO stations by bus or on foot, stations should be spaced to serve the busroutes which, in turn, should be spaced to serve whatever the local development is. In Toronto, given the ways our arterials work, that would usually translate to ~2km station spacing.

There's also issues on the other end with GO only serving Union station downtown. For lots of commuters, even ones originating at very GO-convenient locations like Kennedy Stn, if your destination is anywhere other than right around Union the travel time savings go away pretty quickly.

 

[diminutive]

I'm always skeptical about plans to run GO trains to Orangeville. I've said it several times here before - the OBRY alignment, especially north of King Street/Cheltenham can not compete with Highway 10 for speed. It's slow, winding (and scenic). .

I'm no expert on the area, but I wonder about the feasibility of building a new ROW along HWY10 for about 20km between King st. and Orangeville. Especially if there's ever any widening of 10 or a 410 extension, you'd think it would be possible to sneak in a track without too much hassle.

Whether the ridership from Caledon, Orangeville and Northern Brampton would justify this is another matter.

 

[innsertnamehere]

MTO doesn't have any plans for a 410 extension (beyond moving up to meet the still-to-be-defined GTA West corridor), They want to keep Highway 10 largely as is with some minor intersection improvements.

It's an interesting concept to re-route the rail line into a 410 ROW if the 410 is ever extended to Orangeville, but there are currently no plans to do so, and I'm not exactly a fan of new build highway corridors anyway.

 

[dunkalunk]

How about reviving the GO ALRT for REX purposes? (after the existing ROW is electrified of course). I envision a corridor running from Oakville to Pickering via the 403, Square One, Renforth Gateway, NYCC and onwards.

 

[ssiguy2]

All this really requires is political will which is lacking in Toronto and not just because of Ford.

Toronto could have a RER system up and running in 2 days if it wanted to. All it has to do is bring allow anyone with a TTC pass/fare to board the GO trains/buses within the city limits. It could introduce a sales/gas tax to pay for the difference of lost revenue to GO, and voila, a RER system by Monday morning.

The good thing about electrification and adding more stations for RER is that it can be done gradually as needed and as money becomes available.

Tory at least seems to understand the concept and the usefulness of using existing transit infrastructure for transit. Oliver Chow will be a horrible set back for Toronto in terms of transit. AFAIK, the only plan she has come up with is 10% increase in bus service without mentioning where the money will come from. Anyone who thinks that is an issue to Toronto's transit woes is either stupid or completely incompetent, either of which is enough reason not to vote for her.

 

[mpd618]

I think what's really idiosyncratic is the assumption that we can never unload and load a commuter train in less than 10 minutes or a VIA train in less than 30 minutes, and that we need a multi billion dollar tunnel to fix that.

Agreed. One such approach should include more through-running of more trains (Lakeshore, pair Milton or Georgetown/Kitchener with Stouffville or Richmond Hill). When possible, trains should not terminate and reverse at Union Station but continue onwards or reverse at Bathurst or Don Yards, reducing dwell times in the station.

In Washington, D.C., through-running is being planned to expand capacity at Union Station and improve service, and that's between two different commuter rail agencies!

It is really odd to be considering building tunnels if you aren't even trying the most obvious thing to move trains out of the station faster.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Toronto could have a RER system up and running in 2 days if it wanted to. All it has to do is bring allow anyone with a TTC pass/fare to board the GO trains/buses within the city limits.

Yeah... and while they're at it maybe they should just make transit free?

 

[Platform 27]

All this really requires is political will which is lacking in Toronto and not just because of Ford.
Toronto could have a RER system up and running in 2 days if it wanted to. All it has to do is bring allow anyone with a TTC pass/fare to board the GO trains/buses within the city limits. It could introduce a sales/gas tax to pay for the difference of lost revenue to GO, and voila, a RER system by Monday morning.

This sort of nonsense that you keep sputtering out of complete ignorance of how things are in Toronto really doesn't help the debate.

Yes, you could cut GO fares tomorrow inside the City of Toronto. And rush hour trains would go from 105% of seated capacity to 110%.

GO's capacity and frequency at rush hour on all lines is limited by its existing infrastructure, not politics. GO's ability to run all-day on lines like Barrie are limited by its existing infrastructure, not politics.

You lift those caps by spending on tracks, signalling systems, rolling stock, grade separations, extra platforms, maintenance facilities -- and as often gets noted around here, training additional crews. Only then do you have a train system that could potentially swallow 10s of thousands of new riders within the City of Toronto. All of this is either happening or moving in the right direction, but perhaps not fast enough for all of us.

 

[drum118]

This sort of nonsense that you keep sputtering out of complete ignorance of how things are in Toronto really doesn't help the debate.

Yes, you could cut GO fares tomorrow inside the City of Toronto. And rush hour trains would go from 105% of seated capacity to 110%.

GO's capacity and frequency at rush hour on all lines is limited by its existing infrastructure, not politics. GO's ability to run all-day on lines like Barrie are limited by its existing infrastructure, not politics.

You lift those caps by spending on tracks, signalling systems, rolling stock, grade separations, extra platforms, maintenance facilities -- and as often gets noted around here, training additional crews. Only then do you have a train system that could potentially swallow 10s of thousands of new riders within the City of Toronto. All of this is either happening or moving in the right direction, but perhaps not fast enough for all of us.

You are totally correct and time people realizes that Metrolinx needs billions of dollars to fix all the infrastructures within Toronto to allow full integration between GO and TTC.

Then there is the issues of crews and different rolling stock as not all lines will have the same ridership.

Once West Toronto Diamond is completed by the end of the year, the Davenport grade crossing need to happen for the Barrie Line next and it has to be elevated regardless what the community wants. It time to tell the NIMBY folks where to go as they aren't old enough when any of the lines were first built. Don't like it, move somewhere else since you accept the fact trains used that line in the first place when you move into the area. Yes more trains are going to be running than in the past, but these lines are the backbone for future transit movement not only in Toronto, but southern Ontario.

The City of Toronto is at fault in many places by allowing residential and schools to be built next to the corridor since they chased employment use away. In many places, it was the only choice as employment use will never return as we move forward with new technology.

It will cost $1 Billion to upgrade the RH line and take years to fix a lot of the issues for it that will allow faster running of trains on that line.

Every grade crossing needs to be remove and that will cost $10-$30 million each with some being higher as well taking a few years to do.

More stations needs to be added as walk-in only.

Once the line is electrify, you will use less crews and equipment to move the same number of riders today with current equipment.

At the end of the day, it is political interference that is stopping us from getting what is needed to move us from lack of funds to building someone pet toy that should be something else or place somewhere else in the first place that will benefit everyone as well service more of them.

Having an RER up and running in 2 days is a dream that lives out in space.

 

[W. K. Lis]

You are totally correct and time people realizes that Metrolinx needs billions of dollars to fix all the infrastructures within Toronto to allow full integration between GO and TTC.

Then there is the issues of crews and different rolling stock as not all lines will have the same ridership.

Once West Toronto Diamond is completed by the end of the year, the Davenport grade crossing need to happen for the Barrie Line next and it has to be elevated regardless what the community wants. It time to tell the NIMBY folks where to go as they aren't old enough when any of the lines were first built. Don't like it, move somewhere else since you accept the fact trains used that line in the first place when you move into the area. Yes more trains are going to be running than in the past, but these lines are the backbone for future transit movement not only in Toronto, but southern Ontario.

The City of Toronto is at fault in many places by allowing residential and schools to be built next to the corridor since they chased employment use away. In many places, it was the only choice as employment use will never return as we move forward with new technology.

It will cost $1 Billion to upgrade the RH line and take years to fix a lot of the issues for it that will allow faster running of trains on that line.

Every grade crossing needs to be remove and that will cost $10-$30 million each with some being higher as well taking a few years to do.

More stations needs to be added as walk-in only.

Once the line is electrify, you will use less crews and equipment to move the same number of riders today with current equipment.

At the end of the day, it is political interference that is stopping us from getting what is needed to move us from lack of funds to building someone pet toy that should be something else or place somewhere else in the first place that will benefit everyone as well service more of them.

Having an RER up and running in 2 days is a dream that lives out in space.

In a lot of cases, industry used to be next to the railway tracks. Now with empty industry buildings, they are either converted into residential, or are replaced with residential.

Expect to see the very same situation, decades from now, when the now industrial properties out in the 905 get converted into residential.

 

[robmausser]

Yeah... and while they're at it maybe they should just make transit free?

Free wouldn't solve a problem we have, and thats a dire lack of urban rail based transit in the downtown.

Doing "free GO train rides for TTC ticket holders within the downtown GO stations" would lose money (and how is that so different than how it is now, both TTC and GO are heavily subsidized) it would actually still be cheaper than rushing to build the new transit lines we need. And it would fix a problem pretty quickly, not in 10 years.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Everyone seems to have this impression that GO is some underused service that runs empty trains and that the solution to all of Torontos problems is to make it cheaper. Have any of you ridden a GO train at rush hour? You could fit maybe 10 more people in each car, max. They are full. Making GO cheaper would only shift the overcrowding from the TTC to GO.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Everyone seems to have this impression that GO is some underused service that runs empty trains and that the solution to all of Torontos problems is to make it cheaper. Have any of you ridden a GO train at rush hour? You could fit maybe 10 more people in each car, max. They are full. Making GO cheaper would only shift the overcrowding from the TTC to GO.

When there was the last TTC strike, the GO trains and buses quickly filled up what very little extra space they had. The left many would be passengers within Toronto.

 

[ssiguy2]

So if I get this right, you shouldn't create a RER system right now because too many people will use it?

One only has to look at all the GO trains sitting in the yard doing nothing all day except during rush hours to see that there is more than enough rolling stock for day and weekend RER operations. A RER system does not need any time what so ever to begin operation................electrification, more rolling stock, higher frequencies, additional stations can all be brought in gradually. This is NOT a subway system where the whole line has to open all at once or nothing.

Toronto could raise taxes and write GO a cheque for the revenue it's loses by allowing a TTC ticket to be valid for a GO fare and I don't think it would be that much as few Torontonians even take GO.

This is something Toronto and Metrolinx should do anyway. Instead of a 18th Royal Commission on a DRL and wondering how increased GO service will effect the need or capacity of such a line or even where to put it they should run the GO with TTC fares for a "trial" period regardless. How are you ever going to figure out what the real need for a DRL or better GO service is until you do a trial of it? Maybe you will find the DRL isn't needed or conversely maybe you will find out that electrification and higher frequencies will mean little to Torontonians. Who knows............but you should be finding out before untold billions are spent and then find out it was money poorly spent.

What the worse that could happen by at least having a trial of such a system? In fact, I think the TTC may find that due to integration the number of fares/passengers on it's system actually increases as does revenue.

 

[innsertnamehere]

We are discussing peak times, when the TTC is overloaded. GO doesn't have trains sitting around during peak hours, nor does it have the infrastructure to run trains off peak on much more than a bi-hourly frequency, if that. Its hard to run bi direction service when you have only a single track, after all.

Seriously, do you even read what people post? I made a direct response to your idea that if we charged people a TTC fare for GO starting tomorrow with 0 dollars spent on infrastructure, our problems would be fixed. I said that it isn't realistic, as you seem to have this impression that GO runs empty trains at rush hour, while it doesn't. Far from it. I pointed out that if you were to charge a TTC fare, the existing GO network would immediately become extremely overloaded, likely even moreso than the TTC network is today. Once you spend several billion upgrading capacity on the GO network, then yes, maybe you can start considering it. But today as the network exists GO does not run a system than can just absorb even 1/100th of the TTCs ridership without hitting serious capacity issues.

Let. Me. Repeat. GO runs a system that much like the TTC, runs at near total capacity at rush hour. Letting TTC users use it will fix nothing, as there is simply no space to give to them. Period. Running off peak train service using existing trackage is next to impossible beyond bi-hourly services, as the infrastructure simply does not exist to allow trains to travel in two directions.