MisterF
Senior Member
That's correct. The main transitway goes south on Town Centre but a secondary route continues east on Highway 7. That section now has HOV lanes similar to the ones on Don Mills.
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drum118
Superstar
Half of Torontonians support King St. pilot, poll finds
Awareness of the effort to improve streetcar service is high, and only one-quarter of residents disapprove.
Awareness of the effort to improve streetcar service is high, and only one-quarter of residents disapprove.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
It's not staying in its current form, it'll be totally different by end of the pilot
-- Better transit priority system
-- More streetcars (they're adding them, one by one -- they will be finished adding streetcars by around springtime
-- More people support this project than oppose it.
-- There will be a pedestrian-amplification factor next summer with on-street patios and such, this will help make up for lost business.
There are mixed reviews but the adjustments are being made on the fly, and rather quickly from what I am seeing. I'm hoping they fix the transit priority.
Rough start aside, it's looking very likely that the trial goes permanent.
blixtex
Active Member
Reading some of the genuine feedback from actual users, I don't think it'll get better for them even with those improvements due to fundamental issues. Basically seeing that Streetcars will continue to get much more crowded as:
-Queen riders move there (funnily, probably made worse because of cars diverting to Queen from King slowing Queen traffic to a crawl),
-Enforcement is variable emboldening more cars to cheat.
-Putting the stops after the lights (while it's much more crowded) will make the streetcars behind stuck much more under multiple red lights as it takes much much longer to load and unload passengers.
-Blocking off the right lanes with planters will result in cars on the streetcar lane slowing down the streetcars and therefore same criticism as before.
-Taxis still causes major slowdowns
Therefore, IMO, adding more streetcars won't necessarily help the bunching issues. And that average improvement of 4 minutes will dwindle.
In all, there will be support for this as the rush hour gridlock is worse than any option. So as you said, it'll stay in some form, but the more the city tinkles with it that causes another problem, the more it'll annoy everybody in the long-run. It should have either been a total ban on cars with near right of way 'Green' lights or just an expanded rush hour ban type thing (I think it'll ultimately end up there).
steveintoronto
Superstar
I too think that the present success might be 'as good as it gets' with the fundamental, and critically flawed limitations.
It's a serious issue with no remedy under the present configuration.
I agree with blocking off those lanes, but with the caveat to block through traffic using the streetcar lanes. Except for permit holders who need driveway access, to deliver or provide social services to the locals. Many other transit malls do it this way...or what's the point?
Ffffing taxis. They're their own worst enemies. (Edit: I used to drive one myself right after leaving college until I got better employment)(Driving a truck! lol) Since they seem incapable of policing themselves, (huge surprise there) then make them get a permit for using the "Controlled Access Highway" under the HTA. (All detailed previously in various sections of the Ont Highway Traffic Act)
It's a compromised mash-up in almost every respect.
The City is trying to do on a shoestring what any other "World Class City" would spend ten times the amount on. (TO has spent a little over $1M on this). It's almost guaranteed it would reach its point of incompetence at about...well...right now as a matter fact. They still haven't addressed traffic signal priority and type.
The good news on this, and the poll results should embolden City Hall ("Reach for the impossible while ignoring the do-able") to fund this the way it needs.
But alas...
Sooner or later, the Red Light Camera and (arguably) continual red with exceptions posted with a transit vertical white bar at the top of the signal head will be necessary. Pretending otherwise guarantees this experiment reaches saturation point for efficacy almost immediately.
Exception – white vertical bar indication
(19.1) Despite subsection (18), a driver operating a bus or street car on a scheduled transit authority route approaching a traffic control signal showing a white vertical bar indication may, with caution, proceed forward or turn right or left. 1994, c. 27, s. 138 (13).
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08
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DSC
Superstar
We REALLY need to remember that it's a PILOT PROJECT and that it is being and will be TWEAKED during the year. I am getting REALLY tired of people (yes @blixtex I mean you!) who spout off because they have observed something (once!) or have an opinion not backed up by any facts but have not actually looked at any real data (see the start of data reporting on Steve Munro's site) Is it perfect, of course not, is it achieving its aim (speeding up and making transit more reliable): apparently it is. I had a long phone call from an angry neighbour last night saying it was ridiculous that the streetcar tracks had not been moved to the curb lanes - he appeared to think this was 'easy to do". Sigh!
Voltz
Senior Member
Can it be that hard to add in a white arrow indication? So on king the traffic lights can remain red while the streetcars are going through.
I know this section of the HTA would have to be changed.
steveintoronto
Superstar
It's relatively easy in terms of interfacing with existing frames, I suspect the cycle interruption is already available on the traffic signal controllers extant. The trickier part will be to add sensors for advanced priority for approaching streetcars, but this is tried and trued in thousands of instances elsewhere in the developed, and sometimes undeveloped world. Toronto is still in the dark ages on much of this, even with the limited priority used in some cases (St Clair, QQ, etc)
I quoted that section as I thought same, and then, on careful reading, realized it didn't have to be.
"with caution, proceed forward". Sounds like it's hedging, doesn't it? Except it isn't. It's no different than turning right on a red, save for not being compelled to stop first. Besides which the operators can have a clone "pedestrian walk" signal next to the traffic signal head if the actual one aligned with pedestrian crossings is not clearly visible to alert them if they are turning right or left, a very unusual situation unless going into or out of service.
I have also considered the Act being interpreted to allow the vertical white bar to flash when pedestrians have priority. I read absolutely nothing in the Act to prevent that, and a letter of understanding from the Minister is all that would be necessary to give QP's blessing to it.
The very last section of the present HTA:
Part xvi
pilot projects
Pilot projects
228 (1) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may by regulation authorize or establish a project for research into or the testing or evaluation of any matter governed by this Act or relevant to highway traffic. 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 33 (1).
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08
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DSC
Superstar
Well, you just answered your own question.....
steveintoronto
Superstar
His remark was colloquial. *Interpretation* of the Act is on-going and far more permissive than some believe. ION obviously got Ministerial exception and blessing for their indication system.
There are answers available at very low cost and should have been anticipated as they were in this string and others before the event, not after.
steveintoronto
Superstar
[...]
The TTC might do far better by using still cameras, as an interpretation of "Red Light Cameras"...since red lights *are* displayed on the streetcar.
Here's the fodder for a heated debate in the press and elsewhere:
The TTC is going to have to take a different tack and tact, not least by demanding what ION has for exception under the HTA (I'm still trying to find the legal basis for it, it has to exist).
The Province will be (rightly) concerned about video taping, albeit it's done on buses, subway stations....*GO trains* and used in courts of law.
Il Duce is left hanging on this one...perhaps until he can breathe no longer.
Attachments
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Further to above:
In part, at least, the TTC is making a mistake in asking for a revision of the Act. That's just begging obfuscation and dithering on the part of the Magnificent Il Duce.
Ask for an *interpretation* as clearly allowed under the Act. And make a massive stink, enough to hang ones re-election, if he doesn't comply. I don't know how much clearer the "Pilot" section can be. And it's good for twelve years after the day of inception. More than enough time to get a permanent clause inserted into the Act. Even if it takes the deposing of Il Duce Himself.
Very similar powers as under the Pilot section quoted prior:
In part, at least, the TTC is making a mistake in asking for a revision of the Act. That's just begging obfuscation and dithering on the part of the Magnificent Il Duce.
Ask for an *interpretation* as clearly allowed under the Act. And make a massive stink, enough to hang ones re-election, if he doesn't comply. I don't know how much clearer the "Pilot" section can be. And it's good for twelve years after the day of inception. More than enough time to get a permanent clause inserted into the Act. Even if it takes the deposing of Il Duce Himself.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
If dashcams are getting to be common in regular motor vehicles, so could they be used in transit vehicles.
If the plates can be read, which is a problem sometimes. Some plates are dirty or deliberately obscured.
It can be a $85 fine. Higher in other jurisdictions. Hopefully, the cops stopping vehicles will check to see if the plates are readable.
If the plates can be read, which is a problem sometimes. Some plates are dirty or deliberately obscured.
It can be a $85 fine. Higher in other jurisdictions. Hopefully, the cops stopping vehicles will check to see if the plates are readable.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
That's true, and that's why they're adding streetcars.
Streetcar bunching is much more manageable with King Street Pilot than before, which means capacity to add more streetcars -- to a certain point. I'd daresay Toronto can easily hit 80,000/day on King, up from 60-65K/day.
Well, that's possibly true (to be determined in data), but:
Depending on how many streetcars are able to be added (rather than retired) -- I think the statistics will show that King riders will go up faster than the loss off riders from other streetcar routes.
Car lanes can only move 600-800 cars per hour downtown. (For freeways, Transport Canada measures 1700-2200 cars per hour, at an average of slightly less than 2 seconds trailing -- and there's only 3,600 seconds in 1 hour). Another good reference is this very interesting statistic - this is why Toronto is now building a boom of bike lanes since they have more surge capacity at peak hour. Certainly, it slows cars down slightly, but more grand total number of people move (and faster on average) through downtown core -- the increase in new mobility at faster speeds more than makes up for the car traffic slowdown in downtowns. As cities get really super-dense, the mode is forced to shift to something that can move more than 600 people per hour per car lanes. Such as streetcars or bikes.
Car lanes -- 600 cars per peak hour in stoplighted lane (downtown)
Freeway lanes -- 1700-2200 cars per peak hour on freeways
Bike lanes -- over 1000-2000 bikes per hour in half the width of a car lane
Streetcars/LRT -- Several thousand per peak hour. In some cities, can approach beyond 15,000 people per hour (chained trains, like Calgary C-Train).
In certain parts of Toronto, bike lanes have moved more people than cars in a car-count/bike-count survey (infographic). When Toronto suddenly needs to move (peak hour), Toronto is forced to find solutions that break the 600-to-800-car-per-hour barrier on worldwide peak-period-downtown-streets.
It's a constant like speed-of-light, and only bikes/streetcars/etc cracks that barrier. Yes, some bike lanes are empty offpeak, but so are car lanes -- 2:00am empty car lanes, empty streetcars, empty bike lanes. You gotta be fair at peak though when a downtown core needs to move more people and break the capacity barrier (600-to-800-car-per-hour immovable constant like a speed-of-light) -- and that means shoehorning a frustrating modifications like taking car lanes away from car drivers in an attempt to rebalance transportation modes in a modern city downtown.
As a result, ridership decline on other routes (as it has come up in other city statistics) will be smaller than the ridership increase.
As long as more people gets around faster, divided by total number of people moving, I think it'll be an overall net-positive after various tweaking over the next year (and beyond, if made permanent). The speedup on King would then, more than outweigh the slowdown on Queen, and increase in people moving faster.
So bottom line: The needs of many outweighs the needs of the few, especially since more grand total (downtown combined) people is being able to be moved, thank to King Street Pilot.
That's why new measures are coming. Enforcement cameras!
They're working on it now:
http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2017/December_11/Reports/14_Automated_Camera_Enforcement_for_Transit_Only_Lanes_and_V.pdf
Key phrase, "Implementing demonstration project during King Street Pilot" ... that's a promising phrase!
Actually, these are the perfect places for stations. What we need is European style traffic priority stoplights.
European style "FAR-SIDE" traffic priority speedup for trams/streetcars
--> Stoplight automatically stay green until streetcar coasts past (or shortens red cycle upon GPS-trigger of approching streetcar)
--> Stops at platform to pick up people
--> Streetcar can immediately begin accelerating, never having been stymied by a red light.
There's already traffic priority systems in Toronto (green-light extension upon approaching streetcar), but they're at amenic settings -- programmed so conservatively that it is not producing noticeable benefits. Many stoplights have a "maximum green extension" so a streetcar doesn't manage to coast past on time. A green light can only be triggered to be extended by a few seconds by an approaching streetcar, but that's not long enough -- the extension expires often before the streetcar reaches the stoplight! It's just an easy programming change with the existing TTC traffic priority system to at least give another +10-15 seconds (increased green-light-extension timeout parameter). Or even better, make it GPS-triggered (smarter timing of greens) in a future upgrade.
Bottom line, far-side platforms are the fastest but only IF the traffic light is properly programmed.
It's brilliantly smart of the city to do this, but it's dumb that politicians/lobby don't let Traffic Ops reprogram the stoplights to be more 'efficient' for transit priority.
Perhaps. In many places, the planters make a lot of sense, but there's a few where I think makes slightly less sense (e.g. places where a tourbus could park near Roy Thompson Hall).
Resulting in few cars ahead of streetcars, but lots of cars behind streetcars -- the best situation for King Street Pilot. And it'll work better when transit priority is adjusted or upgraded.
No disagreement. It's a sudden thermonuclear taxi explosion (in numbers of taxis) at 10:01pm in the Entertainment District.
The average improvement of 4 minutes is an all-day average. The improvement is much bigger at peak period. Cars don't drive faster at 2:00am versus 5:00am, the road are empty. Same for streetcars offpeak -- they're almost equally fast. But when quoting the PEAK PERIOD number instead -- the number is a much bigger improvement.
For cars on average, maybe.
But the average delay to cars is smaller than the time savings to the average streetcar rider. That's what they're finding out, totalled all day long -- taking the smaller (allday averaged) numbers -- it's a 50 second slowdown for cars and 4 minute speed up for streetcar riders [while also adding total-people-movement-capacity to downtown too, to boot, on top, above-and-beyond]. And the differences are even bigger at peak.
Yes, full streetcars. People forced to walk. Yes, slow driving. People forced to skip driving to downtown. But at the end of the day, more business, more commerce, more people moved downtown. There's gainers and losers, and maybe a few businesses on King are losing at the moment but ideally will adjust.
For total-number-of-people-moved-downtown, not really -- more people are being moved, grand totalled, downtown-wide -- assuming increase in streetcar count.
Many modeshifts are happening, including car drivers annoyed by slowness, but Toronto needs more people-move capacity (grand totalled), and that's what King Street Pilot aims to also improve. The increase in people moved outweighs the people slowdown (e.g. drivers diverted).
It's a lot of very messy modeshifts, some frustrating, and some satisfied. The job is to make sure that the satisfied count increase faster, AND grand total of people moved downtown (total capacity increases). Not everybody gains, but the gains can exceed the losses. I hope that tweaks to King Street Pilot addresses many concerns such as streetcar overcrowding.
Perhaps it will migrate eventually towards a car-ban on King.
But that's quite difficult. We need the parking garages on King (I drive, too, by the way. but I support the Pilot).
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drum118
Superstar
Where there are parking entrance on King today, that will be the only location where cars can use a block if all cars are ban from King. Same goes for deliveries.
Don't need more parking garages on King,
Don't need more parking garages on King,
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