[harsh]

Lets cause more controversy..

There are a great number of black men getting murdered in the city and Blacks are not the dominate minority group in Toronto or even in the GTA.

You can say social-economic problems are to blame, but there are larger minorities group who face the same problems as blacks, why aren't they getting murdered by the dozens???

The answer is, the Black community should look inwards towards themselves to solve this issue and stop blaming the white man for everything.

Some of you will find what I just said offensive but this is a rather popular view among people of other immigrant communities on this issue.

I've read every comment in this thread I don't recall anyone blaming the white man.

if you visit places like Vancouver or Winnipeg where the murder rate is HIGHER than toronto you'll see why its not about race at all.

Every Race has their inner turmoil and should be addressed but crime is a dilemma that ALL races have stake in.

 

[doady]

Lets cause more controversy..

There are a great number of black men getting murdered in the city and Blacks are not the dominate minority group in Toronto or even in the GTA.

You can say social-economic problems are to blame, but there are larger minorities group who face the same problems as blacks, why aren't they getting murdered by the dozens???

Other than perhaps aboriginals, I can't think of a single minority group in Canada that are more maligned than blacks. Sure, all minorities have their struggles but it is nothing to compare to what blacks have to deal with. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Blacks don't jsut have to deal with the hate from whites, but also Asians and South Asians as well.

 

[adma]

if you visit places like Vancouver or Winnipeg where the murder rate is HIGHER than toronto you'll see why its not about race at all.

In such cases, substitute "aboriginal" for "black".

 

[SunriseChampion]

In such cases, substitute "aboriginal" for "black".

Or, rather, South Asian in the former and Aboriginal in the latter.

eAlthough, I'd go farther and say "crackhead" in the former...any ethnicity will do, though I dare say, the whites have a handle on that one in Van City.

 

[jenny_zhang]

They were blaming Asian gangs in Vancouver as well.

Also, while it's true that Asians are probably the most racist against blacks this is due to a perception of association between them and crime. And if you look at this statistically, it's not entirely unfounded.

Chinese are seen as criminals in Japan but pretty harmless in the U.K. South Asians might be associated with crime in Vancouver but the complete opposite in the United States. But it seems like with the black population it is somewhat constant....

....Basically I don't think we can just say it's all because of racism or whatever. I agree with what lordmandeep said, it needs to be addresseed from within the communities themselves.

 

[harsh]

They were blaming Asian gangs in Vancouver as well.

Also, while it's true that Asians are probably the most racist against blacks this is due to a perception of association between them and crime. And if you look at this statistically, it's not entirely unfounded.

Chinese are seen as criminals in Japan but pretty harmless in the U.K. South Asians might be associated with crime in Vancouver but the complete opposite in the United States. But it seems like with the black population it is somewhat constant....

....Basically I don't think we can just say it's all because of racism or whatever. I agree with what lordmandeep said, it needs to be addresseed from within the communities themselves.

So the chinese and south asians are cool in the UK and US? But blacks are never cool. That's a blanket statement. Perception and reality are two different things. you are aware by definition a black person can be chinese and a white person can be african.

Having said that homicide is the leading cause of death for AMERICAN blacks ages 15-19 NOT black people as an ENTIRE RACE. nevertheless it is perceived as such.

Do you know the leading cause of death among american whites 15-19????.....motor vehicle injury SOURCE
But do we perceive whites to be bad/reckless drivers??? Oops I thought those were the asians...........catch the point??

 

[jenny_zhang]

So the chinese and south asians are cool in the UK and US? But blacks are never cool.

I don't know what you mean by "cool". I'm saying that different groups (chinese, indians, vietnamese, etc) seem to have varying perceptions in different parts of the world, but negative perception and crime rate of blacks seems to be fairly constant in places they have large populations.....and perceptions don't spring up out of nowhere. Like I said, in Canada sometimes people associate black Canadians with crime but that's because there actually is a problem with crime in this community. And I simply don't think that we can use racism as an excuse forever.

Having said that homicide is the leading cause of death for AMERICAN blacks ages 15-19 NOT black people as an ENTIRE RACE. nevertheless it is perceived as such.

You don't think there's a homicide problem in the black community in Canada?

you are aware by definition a black person can be chinese and a white person can be african.

Semantics. This is true if you're talking about nationality or civic identity. I thought we were talking about ethnicity?

 

[harsh]

I don't know what you mean by "cool"

Its figurative just like your "pretty harmless" statement

And I simply don't think that we can use racism as an excuse forever.

I never did nor did anyone else use racism as an excuse for crime.

You don't think there's a homicide problem in the black community in Canada?

When you isolate just 3 factors race homicide and toronto, yes.I think there's a social/economical problem in Toronto which results in more crime ie homicide. Improve that and crime goes down for everyone. I actually acknowledged this already in an earlier post. But is this more of a problem than say motor injury deaths which are the leading cause of deaths among whites? - a fact which you failed to address.

The point is you know homicide stats b/c its on your radar and in the news but other things just as prevalent are not on the front page. Do you know stats on DUI and race? insurance fraud and race? Rape and race? or any other violent crimes and race? Maybe, maybe not but you're sure on homicide and blacks aren't you?

Semantics. This is true if you're talking about nationality or civic identity. I thought we were talking about ethnicity?

When you start mentioning chinese, indian, vietnamese you are talking about nationality. But I'm sure you can see the distinctions between Chinese, japanese and korean. You should be just as sure to recognize the distinctions between jamacian, nigerian and dominican.

 

[SimonP]

Malcolm Gladwell, one of the more famous Jamaican Canadians, has a very interesting take on these issues. His argument follows these points:

*In Toronto Jamaican immigrants are one of the poorest groups in the city and have some of the highest rates of crime
*In New York Jamaican immigrants are closer to a model minority, rapidly joining the middle class
*There are no demographic difference between the people leaving Jamaica
*Thus the difference must be caused by the cities themselves

Here is his conclusion:

After I had moved to the United States, I puzzled over this seeming contradiction--how West Indians celebrated in New York for their industry and drive could represent, just five hundred miles northwest, crime and dissipation. Didn't Torontonians see what was special and different in West Indian culture? But that was a naïve question. The West Indians were the first significant brush with blackness that white, smug, comfortable Torontonians had ever had. They had no bad blacks to contrast with the newcomers, no African-Americans to serve as a safety valve for their prejudices, no way to perform America's crude racial triage.

I.e. New York already has a large black underclass to serve as an outlet for prejudice. There was no need for more people in this role, so West Indians were placed above native blacks. Toronto, by contrast, did not have such a group, and so Jamaicans were placed into the underclass role.

You can read the full article here.

 

[urbandreamer]

Although don't most black homicides in Toronto result from gang disputes? Are gang members poverty stricken, or just surrounded by gang culture that leads to more death? I thought the whole purpose of gangs was to gang together and make some money. So gangs in the West Indian black community surely have more status/money than the average joe?

Would there be fewer deaths if guns were removed from all TCHC buildings?--a mandatory part of being in a TCHC building (and entering the TTC for that matter) should be gun scanners at all the doors, airport style.

 

[SimonP]

Although don't most black homicides in Toronto result from gang disputes? Are gang members poverty stricken, or just surrounded by gang culture that leads to more death? I thought the whole purpose of gangs was to gang together and make some money. So gangs in the West Indian black community surely have more status/money than the average joe?

To reference another work of pop-academia, Freakonomics has a chapter looking at gang economics. (excerpt) . It found that for the vast majority of gang members earn income that is below even minimum wage. According to their study crack dealers in Chicago get $3.30 per hour. Only a small handful at the top earn real money.

 

[jenny_zhang]

His argument follows these points:

Are there sources for these points? Are there stats for crime/education level/income/other socioeconomic indicators for Jamaican New Yorkers? I admit I didn't fully read the article but it seems like many anecdotes, correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean, it's a well written article, but it seems to just follow this pattern of blaming external sources, in this case the racism of Torontonians, for the problems of a community. I mean do you think other groups were welcomed with open arms when they first migrated to the West?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindoo_Invasion

 

[Second_in_pie]

Do you know the leading cause of death among american whites 15-19????.....motor vehicle injury SOURCE
But do we perceive whites to be bad/reckless drivers??? Oops I thought those were the asians...........catch the point??

What kind of argument is this?

The leading cause of death for young white males is car crashes, but that's entirely missing the point. There's practically a barbed wire fence between "car crashes are the leading cause of death for young white males" and "black youth are most at risk for violent deaths." It means that out of all races and age groups, black youth are at highest risk of being shot/stabbed/beat in the head with a billow till their brain comes out of their eye. The other means that out of all the ways white youth have died, car crashes are the most prevalent. It's not saying "homicide is the leading cause of death among young african americans," as that's a totally different issue.

 

[kettal]

Malcolm Gladwell, one of the more famous Jamaican Canadians, has a very interesting take on these issues. His argument follows these points:

*In Toronto Jamaican immigrants are one of the poorest groups in the city and have some of the highest rates of crime
*In New York Jamaican immigrants are closer to a model minority, rapidly joining the middle class
*There are no demographic difference between the people leaving Jamaica
*Thus the difference must be caused by the cities themselves

Here is his conclusion:



I.e. New York already has a large black underclass to serve as an outlet for prejudice. There was no need for more people in this role, so West Indians were placed above native blacks. Toronto, by contrast, did not have such a group, and so Jamaicans were placed into the underclass role.

You can read the full article here.

How interesting the Toronto statistics he cites are about "blacks", but the NY statistics are about "Jamaicans".

 

[lordmandeep]

This may cause a lot of people to get uneasy or angry but I think there is some truth to it.

When people show racism to the Chinese, Muslims or the South Asian's and etc its out of jealousy. They are getting better jobs and are becoming better off...

When whites or any other racial group shows racism to blacks its for a much more deeper and disturbing reason...