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^I was driving on the freeway yesterday and noticed a sign (I’m away from home this week, but Ontario has these also) that said something like “had an accident? move your cars to the shoulder”.
It struck me just how much we assume that there will be auto accidents, and how we have built that assumption into our culture. We put signs up and down our highways because we know there will be accidents every day.
I can’t think of a single human activity which is as complex and carries as huge potential to harm as driving a vehicle - carried out in such a constantly changing environment, and demanding sustained ongoing attention and careful split second decision-making..... which we allow practically anyone to perform.
To pick a comparison - Dentistry? It’s complicated, sure, but the interior of a patient’s mouth does not vary by the second, and even a profound error can at worst cause survivable damage to a single human being. And yet we demand years of study and intensive licensing and testing before we allow an individual to practice.
Flying an airplane? Perhaps more complex, but backed up by far more intensive investment in technology..... and regulated to a greater extent.
My point being - we must not demonize individual motorists for human failure when we have implemented an entire technology with pretty low expectations of human performance, and low expectation of survivability. Nor can we expect generations of people to recalibrate their attitudes or behaviours overnight, just because we have decided to up the standard. Nor can we suddenly preach or rely on silver-bullet solutions (global 30 mph speed limits being one such silver-bullet prescription) and then be upset when these don’t produce immediate success to our newly declared goals.
People need to read a stack of Change Management textbooks, and dwell on what these suggest before they attach themselves to single and simplistic prescriptions.
Our whole planet is built on mobility.
We can’t go cold turkey to achieve Vision Zero.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I can’t think of a single human activity which is as complex, carried out in such a constantly changing environment, and demanding sustained ongoing attention and careful split second decision-making..... which we allow practically anyone to perform.
Click to expand...
I can think of cycling, especially in the city.
 
salsa said:
I can think of cycling, especially in the city.
Click to expand...
Cycling is certainly more demanding and less regulated (doesn't actually require a license), but the nature of it makes it extremely difficult to distract yourself from the task at hand - you have no hands to perform another task as they are required for balance and steering, and the single nature of it makes conversations difficult.

The problem with driving is that it is fairly easy to distract yourself. Radio, phones, passengers, etc. It also isn't quite as demanding, lulling drivers into a false sense of security.
 
TossYourJacket said:
How messed up do your priorities have to be to vote no on a motion designed to stop cars killing children?
Click to expand...
because its virtue signalling and will do little to none to actually reduce injuries?

The at risk locations for injuries in Toronto right now are arterial roads, not local roads. Car speeds are already low enough on those that injuries are much less severe. It's not where the limited focus and resources needs to be going.
 
crs1026 said:
^I was driving on the freeway yesterday and noticed a sign (I’m away from home this week, but Ontario has these also) that said something like “had an accident? move your cars to the shoulder”.
It struck me just how much we assume that there will be auto accidents, and how we have built that assumption into our culture. We put signs up and down our highways because we know there will be accidents every day.
I can’t think of a single human activity which is as complex and carries as huge potential to harm as driving a vehicle - carried out in such a constantly changing environment, and demanding sustained ongoing attention and careful split second decision-making..... which we allow practically anyone to perform.
To pick a comparison - Dentistry? It’s complicated, sure, but the interior of a patient’s mouth does not vary by the second, and even a profound error can at worst cause survivable damage to a single human being. And yet we demand years of study and intensive licensing and testing before we allow an individual to practice.
Flying an airplane? Perhaps more complex, but backed up by far more intensive investment in technology..... and regulated to a greater extent.
My point being - we must not demonize individual motorists for human failure when we have implemented an entire technology with pretty low expectations of human performance, and low expectation of survivability. Nor can we expect generations of people to recalibrate their attitudes or behaviours overnight, just because we have decided to up the standard. Nor can we suddenly preach or rely on silver-bullet solutions (global 30 mph speed limits being one such silver-bullet prescription) and then be upset when these don’t produce immediate success to our newly declared goals.
People need to read a stack of Change Management textbooks, and dwell on what these suggest before they attach themselves to single and simplistic prescriptions.
Our whole planet is built on mobility.
We can’t go cold turkey to achieve Vision Zero.

- Paul
Click to expand...

Not our whole planet, North America has a somewhat warped expectation of mobility rights coupled with low skills. And of course we can demonize individual drivers - one's lack of skills, inattentiveness if not downright callousness has maimed and killed. Would said driver has tolerated it if a dentist put a drill through their skull because "my bad"? We have made more restrictive policies on other activities with such a high kill possibility. Driving is not a right - it is a privilege that must be earned - and it seems that's the lesson that needs to be drilled into their heads.

What we need to look at is the risk assessment matrix (frequency and severity) - in the context of road transportation, driving accidents are both frequent and has severe consequences (injury to fatalities - poss. multiple).

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
Not our whole planet, North America has a somewhat warped expectation of mobility rights coupled with low skills. And of course we can demonize individual drivers - one's lack of skills, inattentiveness if not downright callousness has maimed and killed. Would said driver has tolerated it if a dentist put a drill through their skull because "my bad"? We have made more restrictive policies on other activities with such a high kill possibility. Driving is not a right - it is a privilege that must be earned - and it seems that's the lesson that needs to be drilled into their heads.
Click to expand...

Well, that’s actually my point. I’m not arguing against becoming more restrictive....I’m asking how one raises the bar in a way that gets the desired response. That takes thoughtful analysis and it takes hard data. If the accidents are happening on arterials, lowering speed limits on back streets won’t reduce the toll, but it will torture people who are trying to get someplace. I see a whole lot of indifference to the impact of imposing “solutions” that punish drivers but aren’t pointed at true root causes. There ought to be a balance.... break it down and get it right.

What we need to look at is the risk assessment matrix (frequency and severity) - in the context of road transportation, driving accidents are both frequent and has severe consequences (injury to fatalities - poss. multiple).
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this. Then one looks at what one needs to address first, and one follows up to see if the change worked as intended.

- Paul
 
ADRM said:
Have I missed the spate of pedestrians killing drivers then?
Click to expand...

Have you any actual data about even a single incident that resulted in a death in this city this year? How far away any of the vehicles were when the victim stepped off the curb? What speed they were travelling? How many seconds would the driver have had to brake? Was there specific evidence of inattention or distraction? Were there other factors that would have caused distraction or affected the driver’s recognition of the pedestrian? Were the sightlines blocked by other vehicles? Were the drivers found to be intoxicated? What condition were their vehicles in? Were their tires and brakes in good working order? What was the road condition? Were there tripping hazards or surface irregularities that might have caused a change or unforeseen in the direction or pace of the pedestrian’s travel? What was the position of the sun and how would shadows etc have affected visibility of the diver or the victim as they approached each other?

We know these incidents are happening, but we don’t know the causal factors. The investigators seldom release their end reports, and the media really don’t follow up consistently beyond the initial reporting of an incident. Some of those investigations haven’t even been concluded.

Your claim that the deaths are “at the hands” of drivers is utterly uninformed. But go ahead, keep up the trolling.

- Paul
 
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Police release image of SUV that looks like the one involved in Etobicoke hit and run


In a news release on Tuesday, police said they believe the suspect vehicle is a 2016 to 2018 dark-coloured Honda Pilot. They said investigators have a clearer idea of the year, colour and model of the vehicle because of tips from the public and work done by the Centre of Forensic Sciences.

Police urged the driver of the vehicle in the fatal hit and run on Islington Avenue near Aviemore Drive north of Finch Avenue West on Nov. 28 to contact a lawyer and surrender to police.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-hit-and-run-fatal-image-similar-car-1.5383084
 
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