afransen
Senior Member
It is incredibly depressing to see how good signals can be, and then deal with the dreadful crap we have here every day.
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- Thread starter reaperexpress
- Start date
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Almost enough to make you want to move to the Netherlands!
Or in my case, more than enough...
afransen
Senior Member
As I wait for 3 minutes to cross a major arterial on my bike, I am continually amazed how there are good stretches where I could just jaywalk because no cohort of cars is coming from either direction, and yet without fail as I get my green/walk signal a whole squad of cars is forced to brake for me to cross the street. It's painfully stupid.
afransen
Senior Member
Do you live in Delft now? My father grew up on the outskirts in Den Hoorn.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Cool! Yeah Den Hoorn is about 15 minutes away by bike.
Northern Light
Superstar
I think its great that @reaperexpress has had a chance to experience difference places, specifically those with more advanced ideas in respect of transportation, while also getting to see the world.
Mind you, not to take away all his fun; but I do want him to come back here, so he can catch Toronto up!
Hmmm, I swear Becky Katz is always short staffed............
Mind you, not to take away all his fun; but I do want him to come back here, so he can catch Toronto up!
Hmmm, I swear Becky Katz is always short staffed............
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
It seems in Toronto and Ontario, they do not want to EVER change their "guide book". I'm sure in Europe, if they want to try something new, they'll just experiment despite the "guide book", and if it works, then the change the "guide book" based on the experience.
Wasn't always that way. Used to be a time where we had "ADVANCED GREEN WHEN FLASHING". That was replaced with the green arrow. BTW. In Québec, their "advanced " turn sometimes occurs AFTER. Some places still don't have arrows, so some are more slow to change than here.
Wasn't always that way. Used to be a time where we had "ADVANCED GREEN WHEN FLASHING". That was replaced with the green arrow. BTW. In Québec, their "advanced " turn sometimes occurs AFTER. Some places still don't have arrows, so some are more slow to change than here.
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
Like I said earlier, the whole point is to learn Dutch traffic engineering so I can come back to Toronto and clearly explain to my colleagues how we can make our signals less terrible. I figured 2 years would be enough to learn Dutch practices but it's already been two years and I still feel like I'm just barely scratching the surface. So (assuming I can get a contract which would allow me to extend my visa) I'm thinking of maybe staying a third year. But after that I'm coming back to Toronto, otherwise the whole exercise was kind of pointless.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I think it's partly due to the insular nature of the English-speaking traffic engineering world. When the MTO is making manuals, the international literature they consult is mostly from the US and to a lesser extent the UK and Australia - which are all countries which do the same crap we do. Nowadays any self-respecting traffic manual will also cite a CROW (Dutch traffic guidance) traffic manual as a reference, but while the general guidance from the CROW is available in both Dutch and English, most of the detailed manuals are only available in Dutch. (Which is why I learned Dutch.)
In general Dutch engineers are mostly focused on improving the situation in the Netherlands, and not on promoting their engineering abroad. Since they are so far ahead of the English-speaking world, there's not much benefit to them in maintaining relationship with Canadian engineers. In recent years there have been some Dutch consulting companies (e.g. Mobycon) who have realized the market value of Dutch engineering, and have expanded to Canada, but the concepts they're spreading are mostly in the realm of physical design. Efficient traffic signal operation is not something you can physically see, so it's harder to convey Dutch signal operations to Canadians than, say, the geometry of a roundabout. The really frustrating part is that Canadian engineers are clearly interested in the results of Dutch design (e.g. fully-protected right-turn signals), but proceed to implement those things without understanding the signal operations framework which allows them to operate efficiently in the Netherlands.
Canadian drivers will quickly become frustrated with the proliferation of fully-protected left- and right-turn signals, because it feels extremely stupid to be sitting at a red left turn signal, when you can clearly see that there is no oncoming traffic. Unfortunately drivers will oppose the installation of the protected signals themselves, rather demanding a traffic signal controller which is flexible enough to add an extra left turn green arrow into the cycle if there happens to be an opportunity to do so.
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Towered
Superstar
I've learned over the years to drastically lower my expectations of Toronto. It's done a world of good for my sanity.
Cue the predictable, thoughtless response, "But Toronto isn't the Netherlands."
Towered
Superstar
New traffic light:
The-Soon-To-Be-Former-Dundas Street and Lisgar/Rusholme, replacing a very busy crosswalk. I always hated that crosswalk - I found it to be very dangerous actually.
The-Soon-To-Be-Former-Dundas Street and Lisgar/Rusholme, replacing a very busy crosswalk. I always hated that crosswalk - I found it to be very dangerous actually.
11th
Senior Member
That green forward arrow preceding the regular green works great with the advance pedestrian phase.
They should bring that in Toronto. It allows through traffic to move instead of doing the pointless wait (especially true for non-core areas).
Montreal's implementation still confuses out-of-towners.
When it shows a green forward arrow, one assumes the intersection only allows through traffic (no turns).
The proper way to for that intersection in the video:
green forward arrow + red left arrow + pedestrian walk,
regular green + pedestrian
green forward arrow + green left arrow + hand
regular red + hand
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Leading and Lagging
Left Turn Signals Compared
From link. Best to use the link for the complete references.
There is a lot of confusion and controversy about left turn phasing. This page is intended to remove some of the confusion.
Terminology
Even the terminology about left turn phasing is confusing, because so many different terms have been used for the same things, and because some of the terms and abbreviations have been used for different things. A complete glossary is provided at the end of the article in Appendix A. For immediate use, here is a list of the unambiguous terms used in the rest of this article:
- Circular green permissive - Permissive left turns made during a circular green indication.
- Double-Split Lead-Lag - One leg on the street has leading turn, opposite leg has lagging left turn. Either phase can change first.
- Dual Lag - Both left turns on the street have simultaneous lagging turn phases.
- Dual Lead - Both left turns on the street have simultaneous leading turn phases.
- Dual Split Lag - Both left turns on the street have lagging phases. They can begin at different times.
- Dual Split Lead - Both left turns on the street have leading phases. They can end at different times.
- Exclusively/Permissive - No left turn phase. Left turns filter through gaps in oncoming traffic.
- Exclusively/Protected (E/P) - The left turn is protected during one phase, and is not allowed to proceed otherwise.
- Flashing Yellow Arrow - An indication where left turns are made through gaps in oncoming traffic.
- Flashing Yellow Arrow permissive - Left turns made through gaps in oncoming traffic during a flashing yellow arrow indication.
- Lagging left turn - A sequence where the green left turn arrow is next after the oncoming thru green.
- Leading left turn - A sequence where the oncoming thru green is next after the green left turn arrow.
- No-Split Lead-Lag - Left turn phasing where each leg on the street has an exclusive phase.
- Permissive left turn - An indication where left turns are allowed to filter through gaps in oncoming traffic.
- Prohibited left turn - An indication where left turns must wait until the indication is no longer displayed.
- Protected left turn - An indication with a green left turn arrow, where no other traffic can move in conflict with the turn.
- Protected/Permissive (P/P) - The left turn is protected during part of the cycle and permissive during another part.
- Single lag - A green left turn arrow is displayed in one direction next after the oncoming thru green.
- Single lead - The oncoming thru green is displayed next after a green left turn arrow for one leg.
- Single-Split Lead-Lag - One leg on the street has leading turn, opposite leg has lagging left turn. The leading turn must end first.
- Yellow trap - Left turns trapped in the intersection with a yellow or red light while oncoming traffic is still moving with a green.
Note the lack of refreshes to public transit.
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Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
When they replaced the "60 km/h" signs on a road in my neighbourhood, they didn't inform anyone. They could have used a "NEW" sign attached to them, keeping them until the bolts rust away.
When they replace a "leading left turn arrow signal" with a "lagging left turn arrow signal" or even one that is both "leading" and "lagging" depending if a public transit vehicle gets true priority, they can add a "NEW" sign to the signal.
From link. (They really should replace the solid red signal with a red arrow.)
When they replace a "leading left turn arrow signal" with a "lagging left turn arrow signal" or even one that is both "leading" and "lagging" depending if a public transit vehicle gets true priority, they can add a "NEW" sign to the signal.
SubHuman
Active Member
In the exotic location of Oshawa, the countdown shows how much time is left for the walk signal.
[sarcasm] How silly of them.[/sarcasm]