[TheTigerMaster]

Why is this a Toronto project? Everything about SmartTrack seems to make it a GO/Metrolinx project - and thereby Prov. With some Fed aspects mixed in. I get why Tory wants to push this, and it is great for Toronto and the region. But it seems to me that it shouldn't be a Toronto project... particularly if what ends up being built is part of the upgraded/electrified GO system.

That's a good question. Why is Toronto studying SmartTrack? The only end game I see is so the TTC has justification to drop support for the Relief Line. Either that or John
Tory is committed to his plan to waste billions of dollars on an Eglinton West Subway, a project that may very well be more wasteful than the Sheppard Subway.

 

[44 North]

The only end game I see is so the TTC has justification to drop support for the Relief Line. Either that or John
Tory is committed to his plan to waste billions of dollars on an Eglinton West Subway, a project that may very well be more wasteful than the Sheppard Subway.

Interesting.

Yeah, it just doesn't seem that logical for TO to be handling this commuter rail issue; and that it's out of Toronto's jurisdiction to be wading into or spearheading anything to do with these corridors. Using the same logic - should the onus should be on Peel Region and its taxpayers to study Lakeshore West RER? Or Durham Region to study Lakeshore East?

 

[mdrejhon]

That's a good question. Why is Toronto studying SmartTrack? The only end game I see is so the TTC has justification to drop support for the Relief Line. Either that or John
Tory is committed to his plan to waste billions of dollars on an Eglinton West Subway, a project that may very well be more wasteful than the Sheppard Subway.

Sheppard, while a waste, would be far more popular if it was as long as SmartTrack.

Let's see what they report in early 2015. This is a GO RER section fully within the mayor GTA area, so if Toronto wants to pay to speed up this section and lower fares to TTC for this specific line, it can be a fair trade. Toronto NEEDs to do THEIR study, (750K...) such as bus integration, level crossing and figuring out ideas how to minimize expropriation, etc, and Ontario too needs to study a part of GO RER, then both City and Ontariio they must meet to cooperate in aggregating their findings and "demands"/"requests" into a unified plan, going with each other's ideas to help lube the gears along. Quick and efficient cooperation once they do their wishlists and merge 'em.

This can either be a boondoggle or a brilliant project.

Co-operation is criticial. Exceedingly so, since Queens and City Hall are behind it, and Harper (whether we love or hate him) seemed genuinely interested in working with Tory on this. Whoever we elect for Feds in 2015 is unlikely to try to cancel this.

This isnt an Ontario silo. For better or for worse.

 

[diminutive]

Keep in mind, that Tory is a long time federal Progessive Conservative operative, and knows where bodies are buried. He's close to both Bill Davis and Brian Mulroney (among others), and Harper doesn't want to be on their bad side heading into a federal election.

Of course Harper would meet Tory.

Reality isn't House of Cards. Harper could care less about Bill Davis or Brian Mulroney, both of whom have been set out to pasture for decades.

Why is this a Toronto project? Everything about SmartTrack seems to make it a GO/Metrolinx project - and thereby Prov. With some Fed aspects mixed in. I get why Tory wants to push this, and it is great for Toronto and the region. But it seems to me that it shouldn't be a Toronto project... particularly if what ends up being built is part of the upgraded/electrified GO system.

Clearly there's a lot of overlap, which everyone acknowledges, but parts of the program seem like they'd benefit from municipal involvement. There are probably 15-20 stations which would need to be basically built from scratch in a way that integrates with the existing bus-routes. That's billions in spending that was never considered under any Provincial scheme I know of.

Ultimately there's really no clear dividing line anymore between City projects and Provincial ones... I'm not sure what the big deal is here. There's concurrent City/Metrolinx work on the DRL, the ECLRT, the Scarborough whatever. Pretty much all the Metrolinx projects exist because they were Municipal priorities at one point or another.

 

[nfitz]

Reality isn't House of Cards. Harper could care less about Bill Davis or Brian Mulroney, both of whom have been set out to pasture for decades.

The point is, it's pretty clear where Tory's sympathies lie. Harper is likely heading to a loss in seats in the next federal election; having Tory on his side doesn't hurt. Why is anyone surprised these two right-wingers of long standing wouldn't naturally be having such meetings?

Haven't seen House of Cards ... though saw Ian Richardson once in Toronto. Not sure the relevance.

 

[44 North]

Clearly there's a lot of overlap, which everyone acknowledges, but parts of the program seem like they'd benefit from municipal involvement. There are probably 15-20 stations which would need to be basically built from scratch in a way that integrates with the existing bus-routes. That's billions in spending that was never considered under any Provincial scheme I know of.

Ultimately there's really no clear dividing line anymore between City projects and Provincial ones... I'm not sure what the big deal is here. There's concurrent City/Metrolinx work on the DRL, the ECLRT, the Scarborough whatever. Pretty much all the Metrolinx projects exist because they were Municipal priorities at one point or another.

Excellent points. But we all know how dysfunctional things are at the local/municipal level. Do you really want Toronto City Hall and its lowly councillors dictating the future of something so large and regionally important? Or worse, a situation where a Ford gets reelected in 2018 and he creates an agenda to quash investment in our pivotal Prov rail corridors and/or future GO network?

Outside of whatever is planned for ST’s oddball Eglinton West branch, this does drastically differ from the typical transit projects voted on at City Hall. Toronto doesn’t own one inch of the tracks from Mt Dennis to Milliken. Just as I wouldn’t want any individual local gov’ts in Peel, Halton, York, and Durham funding and directing the future of GO or RER; so to do I think it unwise for Toronto to be spearheading the future of what’s run on the Kitchener or Stouffville lines.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I fear that John Tory's SmartTrack has placed an artificial limit on the improvements we can expect with GO RER. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the scope of the recently approved study is only the SmartTrack plan that John story's campaign team came up with. This does not include the 6 RT routes that Metrolinx plans to introduce (Lakeshore East, Lakeshore West, Barrie, Richmond Hill and Stoufville). This may mean that the scope of the enhanced system integration that the SmartTrack plan calls for may be limited to the planned RT lines that the SmartTrack plan duplicates. I hope that Metrolinx, Ontario and City of Toronto will work together to ensure that this will not be the outcome.

 

[ssiguy2]

They are very similar in nature but I thought the thing about SmartTrack was that it would be a TTC service and hence just be part of the standard TTC like any of the other subway routes. This is why it gains so much traction with voters............people need good transit that they can afford and the reality is that many can simply not afford GO fares.

GO is becoming a good system but for many it is still an unaffordable and all the electrification and frequency upgrades in the world won't make a hoot of difference to low income people who are dependent on transit and are on fixed or low incomes which makes up a very good chunk of TTC patrons.

GO could run every 3 minutes but for hundreds of thousands it wouldn't make any difference. The UPX is an example. If you work at Pearson your ticket is $10 plus your TTC fare and the reality is that very few will take it even though it would be faster as it is still too much of a hit to their wallet.

In order for transit to be effective it must be fast, frequent, reliable, well maintained, and accessible and for many even $7 each way is just too much. Pensioners, unemployed, students, people with disabilities, and low income earners make up most of the ridership for TTC and an extra GO fare is out of the question.

This is why SmartTrack struck a cord with Torontonians that UPX and GO RER have not.............they will actually be able to take advantage of it.

 

[Palma]

Politicians play games. You see Harper doing it a lot recently.

Of course it's not blackmail. It's all very subtle. It's common courtesy and favours. Tory can pull various political strings for Harper, and with them both being right-wing, it's only natural that they scratch each other's backs. Not sure how that gets to blackmail. Toss in Tory's history in the party at the federal level, and those he is close with, and it wouldn't even cross Harper's mind to refuse a meeting. Or in this case, for Harper to request the meeting - which also serves to make a point to Wynne.

Why would I ever listen to his radio show? Who the heck has the time to spend their day listening to talk radio? And what does the character he played on radio have anything to do with anything?

Listening to talk radio or music does not imply one is not working. I work in front of a computer and can access music or perhaps tune in and catch some news on-line while still working. Just as people in their cars listen to music. Now he played a character!. Before his show I had a perception of Tory just because he was a PC. I have never voted PC. I would tune in periodically when in my car and did not know who he was at first. The more I listened the more I liked him and his views many times seemed very progressive to me, I guess its why many people say he is a closet Liberal. Whenever people use to call and tell him his views were not conservative he would say he is a progressive conservative. Use to think these forums were informative but the way I see people commenting on here like they know Tory personally and construct this whole persona of what he is going to do is unreal. Its like people are believing fiction is reality. Just as I was not crazy about Ford but the stuff people would say about him and very vicious at that was unreal.

 

[superman]

That's a good question. Why is Toronto studying SmartTrack? The only end game I see is so the TTC has justification to drop support for the Relief Line. Either that or John
Tory is committed to his plan to waste billions of dollars on an Eglinton West Subway, a project that may very well be more wasteful than the Sheppard Subway.

I really do think that with the focus on SmartTrack, we will not have a Downtown Relief / Queen subway for another generation.

 

[Electrify]

I was at my grandma's yesterday and an automated telephone survey for Smart Track came through, which I offered to do. Some of the questions asked were:

Who would you vote for on the next federal
election? (Liberals; just to clear out Harper)

Who do you think is best to run the country? (Elizabeth May)

Statement: Smart Track is a good plan. (Somewhat agree; with the obvious reservations)

If Harper puts money behind Smart Track, how much more likely would you be to vote for him? (Somewhat more likely; just to help make transit funding a federal issue)

 

[nfitz]

Listening to talk radio or music does not imply one is not working. I work in front of a computer and can access music or perhaps tune in and catch some news on-line while still working. Just as people in their cars listen to music. Now he played a character!. Before his show I had a perception of Tory just because he was a PC. I have never voted PC. I would tune in periodically when in my car and did not know who he was at first. The more I listened the more I liked him and his views many times seemed very progressive to me, I guess its why many people say he is a closet Liberal. Whenever people use to call and tell him his views were not conservative he would say he is a progressive conservative. Use to think these forums were informative but the way I see people commenting on here like they know Tory personally and construct this whole persona of what he is going to do is unreal. Its like people are believing fiction is reality. Just as I was not crazy about Ford but the stuff people would say about him and very vicious at that was unreal.

I'm not sure your point, that you fell for his routine? He's shown little but his right-wing side since December 1, with the same right-wing folks on his EC as Ford appointed - and giving Minnan-Wrong the most power. Meanwhile not only shutting out the left-wing, but also any centrists that he sees as a challenge. And again screwing over those who live downtown. And again appointing to TTC the same nonTTC-using clowns that Ford appointed and council later turfed.

Just as I was not crazy about Ford but the stuff people would say about him and very vicious at that was unreal.

What was unreal? That he beat his wife? That he used drugs? That he abused children? That he stole taxpayers money to the benefit his business and their clients?

Tory might be a heck of a lot more presentable than Ford - but he's still of the same political view. Heck, look at the friends he keeps - Brian Mulroney who (finally) admitted taking envelopes of cash from arms dealers while still in office! Surely when your mentor is caught committing such crimes, you should walk away from him.

I suppose the one advantage Tory has is that he has enough personal wealth that he won't need to line his own nest. But what favours will he do for his golfing pals?

 

[EnviroTO]

Transit operator has no relationship to price. TTC operating a service versus GO does not imply a price point. Price point is an entirely different question. Taking TTC bus 143 to Queen East the same distance as taking GO from Union to Danforth GO is actually cheaper on GO. Services are priced differently and who is running it doesn't determine the price in any way. UP Express is run by Metrolinx but got a different price point. Downtown Express is run by the TTC and got a different price point. SmartTrack or RER, some new urban rail service new to the GTA, run by anyone could get a different price point.

 

[ssiguy2]

Fair enough but I still understood that Tory wanted SmartTrack to be a standard TTC fare.

 

[Rainforest]

Meanwhile not only shutting out the left-wing, but also any centrists that he sees as a challenge.

Not to contradict you, but just out of curiosity: who are those centrists that got shut out and can potentially challenge John Tory?