Yeah, you've got a good point there. With the ACC and the Rogers Center--and by that I mean, as I'm almost positive everyone here will agree with me, the Skydome--nearby, that area might naturally sprout up some retail/entertainment/restaurants. Hopefully then the street-level work on the condos allows for that diversity and actually invites it. I'd imagine that's part of the plan and that the architects would have taken that into consideration...
 
jetsbackincanada said:
So much for your good feeling...... :confused:

What about my statement made you even go there?? ( I dont appreciate being talked down to, I will leave it at that)

I think Southcore in 5 years, once the dust has settled, after a Jays game... will be a very vibrant place.... and Bremner should become a very walkable, pedestrian friendly area, it would be madness, to not cater to that much residential, and entertainment,with cafes , bars, street vendors, and restaraunts!!

The biggest difference between, US and Canadian cities, is the degree of freeway traffic, and how quickly you can pass thru or avoid the urban center, get in and get out in the US , Winnipeg, stays more connected to its neighborhoods as you have to drive thru them, MPLS, u jump on 35 south, for 27 minutes and end up in Burnsville....... Freeways really dominate American citys, exception being NYC, ........... and they battled like only they could, to stop them!!!!
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I really don't understand how you could think I was talking down to you when we were saying exactly the same thing ;)

My comment was really targeted at Miscreant. I know I didn't mention him in particular and it did seem broader but; I find many people bring up 'American' cities like Houston when they have never been there personally. You really are taken aback when you visit Houston ... Houston in particular for one good reason:
Cities like Buffalo / Cleavland were once thriving from an economic perspective but are in a completely different situation today, so you expect to see empty streets (though with great architecture Toronto is and should be envious of), but Houston is thriving economically, more so then Toronto in some regards ! That's really the most shocking part.
 
taal said:
I really don't understand how you could think I was talking down to you when we were saying exactly the same thing ;)

My comment was really targeted at Miscreant. I know I didn't mention him in particular and it did seem broader but; I find many people bring up 'American' cities like Houston when they have never been there personally. You really are taken aback when you visit Houston ... Houston in particular for one good reason:
Cities like Buffalo / Cleavland were once thriving from an economic perspective but are in a completely different situation today, so you expect to see empty streets (though with great architecture Toronto is and should be envious of), but Houston is thriving economically, more so then Toronto in some regards ! That's really the most shocking part.
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No trouble, guess I assumed that "none of you have been to Houston..." as including me.... anyway..I was confused, because we agreed as well..so Move on, no harm no foul!! :rolleyes:

Back To Ice.... I can not think of a more exciting project in some ways, and that whole area being birthed so rapidly, I can not think of a time in NA, where such a project has been tackled, the space between tracks and A freeway......... they used to build "projects" in such places, not middle class vertical cul de sacs!!!!! Just LOVE it..... I think walking out and around the ball park will be a pretty amazing experience in a couple years..... trying to think of a baseball park thats gonna be like this, most are a little outside of the city. edge of downtown across the river..... here what once was across the tracks has become, a 500 foot area with 800 foot peaks !!! WOW...... It will be breathtaking @ night, a young kid a hot dog, CN Tower..... and the Vertical columns of Ice 10 York, MLS, and Success......!! Signature shoul;d be coming soon!?!?!? As a 7 year old from Guelph, Cn used to KILL me, I can only imagine that area in 5 years time!!!!
 
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Yeah, I don't want to come across as one of those people that has this idea of American cities being empty and desolate. For one, I'm currently living in one, and it's anything but; two, I've been to most of the major US cities and not all of them are like that. But some are. Granted, it was years ago I was in Houston. It struck me as somewhat empty after 5pm, a bit like Calgary and to a lesser extent Ottawa. I'm glad to hear things have changed now. But I'm sure another US city fits the description I was assuming when making my point, and it can just be substituted in.
 
Miscreant said:
Yeah, I don't want to come across as one of those people that has this idea of American cities being empty and desolate. For one, I'm currently living in one, and it's anything but; two, I've been to most of the major US cities and not all of them are like that. But some are. Granted, it was years ago I was in Houston. It struck me as somewhat empty after 5pm, a bit like Calgary and to a lesser extent Ottawa. I'm glad to hear things have changed now. But I'm sure another US city fits the description I was assuming when making my point, and it can just be substituted in.
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I haven't been to Houston in a while (a couple years), but there was a lot more going on in Calgary and Ottawa !
 
jetsbackincanada said:
No trouble, guess I assumed that "none of you have been to Houston..." as including me.... anyway..I was confused, because we agreed as well..so Move on, no harm no foul!! :rolleyes:

Back To Ice.... I can not think of a more exciting project in some ways, and that whole area being birthed so rapidly, I can not think of a time in NA, where such a project has been tackled, the space between tracks and A freeway......... they used to build "projects" in such places, not middle class vertical cul de sacs!!!!! Just LOVE it..... I think walking out and around the ball park will be a pretty amazing experience in a couple years..... trying to think of a baseball park thats gonna be like this, most are a little outside of the city. edge of downtown across the river..... here what once was across the tracks has become, a 500 foot area with 800 foot peaks !!! WOW...... It will be breathtaking @ night, a young kid a hot dog, CN Tower..... and the Vertical columns of Ice 10 York, MLS, and Success......!! Signature shoul;d be coming soon!?!?!? As a 7 year old from Guelph, Cn used to KILL me, I can only imagine that area in 5 years time!!!!
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There are other cities in North American currently undergoing changes, maybe not to the same degree as Toronto but it not isolated to Toronto.

Its a little easy to get caught up in the construction and loose track of the bigger picture; Design matters, we're running out parcels to 'learn' and test the waters, MLS impresses me until you look up (past the 10th floor or so), ICE seems to have a lot more going for it. Personally, as others have cited, I care most about how these towers meet the street and what they give back to Toronto, the 5th / 6th floor up really gives back nothing other then postcards.

Regarding your stadium comment, there are many at the heart of 'downtown' in cities all over North America ! Many have cite lines that let you see many more buildings then you do here in Toronto, so I'm not sure what you mean. Moot point though, as generally people care about whats on the field ... well, it is the blue jays after all, so you're right we better try to make it interesting ;)
 
LOL about the Jays... I have walked out of Wrigley, around Fenway & Yankee stadium, ................Seen the parks from the outside, in Philly Pittsburgh Cleveland, Milwaukee, KC, StLouis, Atlanta, Mpls, LA, Phoenix, there isnt one where you wlak out and are in a vertical streetscape, u can see downtown off in the distance, some cases a mere river, freeway or waterfront away.... but none of them will you walk out and stare at 700 and 800 foot condos!!!
The Cn Tower, the Lake,..... ...downtown has enveloped what was once the edge of downtown, Yankee stadium aint built at 43rd and Lexington, its aross the Harlem river in the Bronx, Wrigley feild is a long way from Hancock and Co, Chavez Ravine, quite far from downtown LA..... the few examples of true downtown parks Like San Diego, have really short skylines!!!

When you watch a Jays game, u can see the towers surrounding the stadium, Ice will only add to that!!!! As will 10 york etc!!!

Target field here, is pretty close, but still on the edge of downtown, not SURROUNDED by towers on A:L SIDES!!
 
Actually, that's something interesting that I hadn't thought of. I know a few of the Cityplace towers are visible from inside the Dome, but is it possible that some of the stuff being built over on York will be visible from the west side of the 500's? I'd love to see a future render from that perspective.
 
As a transplanted Torontonian, it's been a while since I have been at a Jays or Argos game. And, of course, "ya don't see nuttin'" if the roof is closed. But I remember the view as spectacular with the lid open and I cannot conceive that is less impressive now. At the very least the CN Tower must still loom over the stadium, in a way unmatched by any sports facility in North America.

I would be more concerned, given those two teams, about the quality of what you see when you look down at the playing field than when you look up and around at the skyline.

PS. The last time I was there, the artificial turf looked awful. Has it been replaced?
 
Detroit Tiger's stadium also has great sight lines of the city, is right downtown, and allows pedestrians to see the field from the street. It's cool.
 
Ya know...

The Jays havent been that bad lately, sure 4th plaCe doesnt sound great, but we always finish around .500, toughest division in baseball..... Our records against the play off teams has been solid ,...... we even seem to play our division fairly tough, seems as though either the Sox the Rays or the Yanks really rough us up( they take turns) while we play the others well, then the next year, its a different one.... we still manage to finish 6 or 7th in the 14 team AL.... 7th overall , but 4th in our div.....meaning we are a playoff team in the central every year in the running at least!

Oddly Interleague play has really been a sore spot.... we always get tough NL teams, (Phillies Braves)..due to out WS matchups.... and we are so built around trying to beat AL EAST teams, that the little things in IL play seems to baffle us at times.... Against the pitching staffs in the east, the long ball is sometimes the only way to put up 4 runs, on 2 homers.... and 4 hits lol

I can say this with certainty, the JAys have been a MUCH Better TEAM THAN THE Twins FOR 7 STRAIGHT YEARS.... THEY GO TO PLAYOFFS GET KILLED AND ARE EVERYONES DARLINGS ..THEYRE SO CUTE....
MEANWHILE.....WE POUND THEM,,,TO THE TUNE OF ( look this up) (SINCE '06)
W 45... L 14,....ITS LIKE REALLY THAT LOPSIDED....
And the run differential, and hrs totals are laughable,.... almost like a minor league team, we outscore them 4 to 1, out homer em the same.... Living here, my baseball friends wont even call me anymore, when the Jays come to town... They know too, Theirs always a close game that goes either way , then 7 to 1 game and then a laugher like 13- 4 lol ! i AM SERIOUS!!! We ahev a better record agianst them than even the Yankees do!!
wE ARENT THAT BAD, JUST VICTIMS OF BASEBALLS ECONOMICS... IN A HOCKEY FIRST TOWN...

....and Tiger staduim is again on the edge of DOWNTOWN, NOT SURROUNDED!!!!

To any out of towner.... that experience will be pretty enthralling, especially at night aftr the games.... Cityplace all lit up ..CN tower lights.... Toronto continues to impress, despite all the locals whining..... U should have heard the Orioles broadcasters amazement and praise..... the towers already built around Skydome dwarf Baltimores tallest..... With Ice and 10 york to come!
 
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I generally agree about the jays, they'll need a better rotation to compete in that division though. Even 90 games will get you third place in the AL east right now- maybe. If they're not spending then hopefully AA can pull something off without giving up too much. The new artificial turf is better, looks better anyway, but still not great for players.

As for ICE, it looks good in the renders and it's nice to see designs that move away from the box. Hopefully no 'green' glass. I also like the proportioning- they should soar even more with those small floorplates.
 
Miscreant said:
Yeah, you've got a good point there. With the ACC and the Rogers Center--and by that I mean, as I'm almost positive everyone here will agree with me, the Skydome--nearby, that area might naturally sprout up some retail/entertainment/restaurants. Hopefully then the street-level work on the condos allows for that diversity and actually invites it. I'd imagine that's part of the plan and that the architects would have taken that into consideration...
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...and the Metro Toronto Convention Centre
 
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