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if you're hinting at what i think you're hinting, then what you said gave me a chuckle.

I am not hinting at anything. I still frequent Koohause and a few of the other downtown clubs. I was just wondering if you do, since you seem to have an opinion about 'older' guys.
I used to go to the speak-easies and underground clubs that were in the John St./Adelaide area, long before it became 'trendy.' Twilight Zone was an amazing mixed (gay/straight) club that heated up Toronto in the early '80s. Drinks weren't a fortune. Cover wasn't $20. This was before the regulations, insurance and necessary security made those types of clubs unprofitable.
There are still a lot of great clubs around, unfortunately most of them are in Montreal.
 
I am not hinting at anything. I still frequent Koohause and a few of the other downtown clubs. I was just wondering if you do, since you seem to have an opinion about 'older' guys.
I used to go to the speak-easies and underground clubs that were in the John St./Adelaide area, long before it became 'trendy.' Twilight Zone was an amazing mixed (gay/straight) club that heated up Toronto in the early '80s. Drinks weren't a fortune. Cover wasn't $20. This was before the regulations, insurance and necessary security made those types of clubs unprofitable.
There are still a lot of great clubs around, unfortunately most of them are in Montreal.


ahh i see. because the part that you quoted from BobBob and your response gave me the impression that you were being sarcastic in a way. because if anyone has actually been to guv knows that there is quite a big percentage of older people there, mostly asian, that come out every weekend.

i actually go to the guv complex around once a month with last night being my last visit for john '00' flemming.
 
Globe: A master plan to rein in 'Clubland'

A master plan to rein in 'Clubland'
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081018.ENTER18/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Ontario/

DAVE MCGINN
Special to The Globe and Mail
October 18, 2008

Business owners in Toronto's Entertainment District are poised to release a new master plan, and although they won't come right out and say it, the blueprint appears designed to put the squeeze on Richmond Street's booze-soaked club zone.

The strategy: Improve landscaping, protect heritage sites and, above all, encourage more residents, shops and restaurants to move in so there'll be a critical mass of people with a vested interest in cracking down on "Clubland."

"The reality is, the clubs cause more problems than they're worth," says Councillor Adam Vaughan, whose ward, Trinity-Spadina, includes the Entertainment District.

"I'm bringing in development to get rid of clubs. Boo-hoo."
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The Globe and Mail

Although Mr. Vaughan has been fighting nightclubs for two years, the difference now is that business owners in the Entertainment District - which, as a neighbourhood, stretches well beyond Richmond's nightclubs, as far south as Lake Shore Boulevard - founded a formal Business Improvement Area (BIA) last November.

Since then they've spent more than $50,000 hiring an urban design firm to draft the master plan, which will be presented to the BIA's board next month. Some club owners fear it's all subtly engineered to force them out of business.

"Clubs are too often unfairly demonized," says Peter Gatien, owner of CiRCA, a 55,000-square-foot nightclub on John Street south of Richmond. "If they make it impossible for legitimate operators to function, it will end up going the way it was 10 or 15 years ago, where you had raves in warehouses and unsafe areas."

The Entertainment District boasts about 2,000 businesses. (Not all are members of the BIA.) The BIA began working on the master plan in the spring. "You need a vision," says Jack Robinson, chair of the BIA's board.

"The master plan can assist in guiding us with decisions, priorities, impacts on the physical environment of the district in a strategic way so that we can go forward with the city to make things happen."

While the master plan has long-term goals that may not be realized for a decade, the first phase is expected to roll out as early as next year, a phase that will include "beautification" projects.

"The reality is that the club district is changing," says Harold Madi of The Planning Partnership, which the BIA hired to write the master plan. "The real exciting stuff in this master plan is, what does that Richmond-Adelaide corridor become, what's it going to evolve into?"

An online survey conducted earlier this year by the BIA as part of the master-plan process identified "noise, crime and safety" as an "issue."

But pushing clubs out is not a goal of the plan, says Mr. Robinson.

"I think it's important to have clubs. You've got to have some reasonable, good entertainment. It's just got to be the right people and safe," he says.

Indeed, the BIA has formed a "safe streets" committee tasked with the job of "constantly working with police" and ensuring that "forms are filled out when somebody sees something that is not right," says Mr. Robinson.

The owner of the club Crocodile Rock sits on the BIA board, says Mr. Robinson, and other clubs have been invited to participate in creating the master plan.

But some clubs are just now discovering that a plan exists.

"This is the first I've heard of the master plan," says Arthur Geringas, general manager of Republik nightclub.

With the plan calling for more residential units and retail businesses in the area, it will inevitably increase pressure on clubs to close, he says. "There's a general sense against nightclubs to begin with downtown, so anything at this point doesn't really surprise me."

For his part, Mr. Vaughan believes the club fad is beginning to disappear on its own - the BIA master plan and his crackdowns are only hastening the inevitable.

The club industry "is a generational phenomena that's had its moment and is disappearing all over North America," he says.

"We're just making sure it disappears in a responsible way and what gets replaced with it is not empty warehouses but, in fact, the new neighbourhood. And if [clubs] don't like it, well, they can move."

While the club district is changing, it is still too dangerous, he says. "From 3 o'clock in the morning to 5 o'clock in the morning it's a friggin' war zone. It's less so now. We've been cracking down for two straight years and coming after the club owners with everything we can get our hands on."

However, Mr. Vaughan says he is not intent on forcing all clubs out of the neighbourhood. "If we build the neighbourhood properly, then the good nightclubs will survive and be viable and contributing partners to the business community," Mr. Vaughan says.

Mr. Gatien says he will be happy to see more cafés and retail stores brought to the Entertainment District. However, he says nightclubs contribute to the culture of Toronto, and their contribution should not be ignored by the BIA or the city.

"I believe that most of the operators in this area are very focused and they're very legitimate," says Mr. Gatien. "If they treat us fairly, we can survive."
 
First they created the Entertainment District.
Then they encouraged all the clubs to come to the Entertainment District.
But when the Entertainment District became too successful
They wanted to dismantle the Entertainment District.

Aren't these people the same 'THEY' that state in their official plans that clubs can only be built in the Entertainment District?
 
If you go to New York and ask to be taken to a club you pretty much have to know where you're going. The clubs are spaced far apart so if you get to one and don't like it then you have to get back in a cab and go to another one.

Having all the clubs together makes it easier for people out of town to party.

They have a club type district in st.johns but they close down the street so everyone can bar hop with ease. Seemed pretty nice overall. Would that work in toronto... probably not with every club charging cover to keep people at their club.
 
^^^ That's George St. in St. John's.

Same idea in Hamilton's Hess Village.
 
The Entertainment District was more fun before they gave it a name. When Toronto had a lot of empty warehouse space, there were many after hours clubs tucked away that existed for years without anyone giving them a bother. The Skydome changed all that and the warehouse space became condos. The current crop of clubs are expensive and bring the 'wrong' crowds. Plus, it's always a bad idea to have a critical mass of party goers.
There used to be the cluster of clubs at Isabella/Yonge and St. Joseph/Yonge that gave neighboring residents headaches in the '80s and '90s. Now they are all gone.
Strange that Montreal doesn't seem to have the same hangover, yet their clubs are sprinkled all along the St. Catherine corridor.
 
While the club district is changing, it is still too dangerous, he says. "From 3 o'clock in the morning to 5 o'clock in the morning it's a friggin' war zone. It's less so now. We've been cracking down for two straight years and coming after the club owners with everything we can get our hands on."

I keep seeing this comment from Vaughan. I live in this neighbourhood and I've spent time here at all hours for years. From a policy maker's perspective, I suppose the term "war zone" is fair given the prevalance of noise violations, liquor licence violations / fake IDs, and a miniscule incidents of recreational drug use (whatever 905 teens can get their hands on).

On the other hand -- and keep in mind that I respect Vaughan and support his initiatives (his father really had his head screwed on right) -- if he's trying to convey the idea that this area is dangerous in the sense that it presents a threat to peoples' personal safety, I'm not convinced it isn't a barrel of lies.
 
I suppose the term "war zone" is fair given the prevalance of noise violations, liquor licence violations / fake IDs, and a miniscule incidents of recreational drug use.

Maybe he's describing the shootings and stabbings that occur there regularly.
 
As another area resident, and one who is not entirely convinced that Vaughan's idea is 100% amazing, I do have to point out that weekend mornings between 1AM and 4AM in this whole area are a time of whooping, smashing, pissing, vomiting and, yes, relatively frequent fights, stabbings and shootings.

The status quo is definitely not great and this neighbourhood, which was a post-industrial dead zone when the "clubland" thing started 15-20 years ago, is now a resurgent residential, work, and play area which may no longer be appropriate for the high concentration of night clubs which it inherited from a different time.
 
As an area resident, I think Adam Vaughn is a tool and does not in any way represent the will of the people living in this ward. I can't wait to vote him the hell out of there.
 
Good luck with that
 
905'ers coming into the district to cause mayhem then go back to their perfectly groomed 3000 sq feet home north of Steeles.This area is full of drug dens and gang owned club,this is NOT how a entertainment district is suppose to be.
 
I suddenly have absolutely no problem with Adam Vaughan's plans for this district.

The writer here presents himself as a concerned infrequent visitor of the clubs along the Richmond strip. I don't know why anyone would want to associate themselves with the pathetic "clubbing scene" in this area. IMO, the whole district has become exactly what a naive 16-21 year old suburbanite would envision as the club district for a big, dark, scary city. Walking through Richmond street between John and Peter at 3am, I see lineups made of what look like 11th graders who can't wait to dance to the latest top 40 CHUM FM crap. I've seen no disagreement with Vaughan's plan that doesn't amount to teenage angst.

This is all personal preference, of course, but I think this is the absolute bottom of the barrel in terms of what the Toronto clubbing scene has to offer. I'd be very happy to see a new district established (or a ban lifted in a specific area) in an industrial or otherwise non-residential area of the city. There's a lot to be said for dispersing clubs throughout the city, but I like the vibe created by a concentrated neighbourhood of clubs (until/unless it mutates into the stomach churning lameness that is Richmond).

Like many others, I have great memories of this place, and I wish they'd put it out of it's misery. If Vaughan wants to play up the impression of danger and violence to that end, so be it.
 

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