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Northern Light said:
Yeah, I think this was a terrible decision. I'm all for electric in principle, but they moved to change design/tender mid-stream and it set back the purchase/delivery dates and inflated the costs. Its not, to my mind, the way we should manage the public purse.
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Its actually a reasonable change. These vessels will have a minimum 30 year life...you can't be buying diesel now for that life when the other technology is in-service already in Kingston...the public wouldn't accept it and the politicians won't accept it, particularly in light of TransformTO.

The timing also makes sense...this vendor is developing a design that will then go to market for a shipyard to build, so its like moving a wall in your home renovation when its just the studs. The City went out with a public input process a number of years ago which concluded that people want the new ferries to have the look of the existing...this is not an off-the-shelf design taken from overseas, because that wouldn't be appropriate for the use case.

The hybrid ferries did not require charging infrastructure...their intent was that the diesel generators recharge the batteries while crossing, allowing no idle while dockside and reducing consumption. So the overall vessel design already could accommodate the weight of batteries...little to no change needed there. There is additional design for shoreside infrastructure (chargers, transformers, electrical infrastructure), plus manufacturing oversight, which I presume are what make up the change.
 
jcam said:
Its actually a reasonable change. These vessels will have a minimum 30 year life...you can't be buying diesel now for that life when the other technology is in-service already in Kingston...the public wouldn't accept it and the politicians won't accept it, particularly in light of TransformTO.

The timing also makes sense...this vendor is developing a design that will then go to market for a shipyard to build, so its like moving a wall in your home renovation when its just the studs. The City went out with a public input process a number of years ago which concluded that people want the new ferries to have the look of the existing...this is not an off-the-shelf design taken from overseas, because that wouldn't be appropriate for the use case.

The hybrid ferries did not require charging infrastructure...their intent was that the diesel generators recharge the batteries while crossing, allowing no idle while dockside and reducing consumption. So the overall vessel design already could accommodate the weight of batteries...little to no change needed there. There is additional design for shoreside infrastructure (chargers, transformers, electrical infrastructure), plus manufacturing oversight, which I presume are what make up the change.
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Thoughtful input.

That said, I'm going to continue to differ here, because this procurement has been delayed for years on end, and its costs have rocketed. I'm not a fan of revisiting every decision a half dozen times because it may (or may not) be improved in some way.

I'll add here, I don't think the public is heavily invested in whether the ferries are electric; I'm sure people support it in theory, if asked; but this is not something I would expect a protest over, had the choice to go w/hybrids remained in effect.
 
Northern Light said:
Thoughtful input.

That said, I'm going to continue to differ here, because this procurement has been delayed for years on end, and its costs have rocketed. I'm not a fan of revisiting every decision a half dozen times because it may (or may not) be improved in some way.

I'll add here, I don't think the public is heavily invested in whether the ferries are electric; I'm sure people support it in theory, if asked; but this is not something I would expect a protest over, had the choice to go w/hybrids remained in effect.
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Agree there won't be protests.

Another wrinkle that makes this fleet replacement strategy difficult is that the current fleet of ferries serve two purposes: getting people to the islands AND getting vehicles across (for contractors, for the City's water treatment plant, etc.). The least reliable ferry in the fleet is the Ward's Island vehicle one (which is the only one that runs year round), but its not the oldest, and the capacity is an issue on the passenger-only ferries in the summer time. The first two ferries they are talking about here are larger, passenger ones.

Getting vehicles on an off takes up a lot of space at the east end of the docks, and pushes traffic through the Yonge St. slip, which is about to be rebuilt. In an ideal world, vehicles would cross to the islands from somewhere else, leaving Jack Layton to only dealing with passengers. During the Billy Bishop renovations, the Port took materials across the harbour from the Port Lands by barge, to get construction vehicles off Eireann Quay. Waterfront Toronto's 2021 Marine Use Strategy (link) specifically calls out a desire to move the vehicle ferry to this route, going from the Port Lands across to the Hanlan's dock. That would benefit both the City (closer to the water treatment plan) and to the airport (back gate to their airside operations), and free up Jack Layton to be 100% active-transportation-friendly.

Problem with a shift away from the foot of Yonge is that ambulance's need a reliable route to support residents and the Polson bridge needs to be reliable (it hasn't been) if vehicles will rely on crossing it to get to the new ferry route. That bridge rehab is only underway now and won't be done for a couple years.

So a lot of things need to happen together in the next decade to make everything work out for the long-term plan.
 
Clearly I'm not so well-versed in ferry procurement and such, but what about Toronto's ferries makes them so unique that an off-the-shelf design or existing modern design from another city wouldn't work here? For example, the SeaBus in Vancouver. I took it a few times and it seemed to work quite well. If we're moving to a passenger only design, why not use that?
 
Dan416 said:
Clearly I'm not so well-versed in ferry procurement and such, but what about Toronto's ferries makes them so unique that an off-the-shelf design or existing modern design from another city wouldn't work here? For example, the SeaBus in Vancouver. I took it a few times and it seemed to work quite well. If we're moving to a passenger only design, why not use that?
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To my mind, the amount of open air space on the current ferries is a major selling factor . Yes, Toronto has bad weather also, but the ferry ride to the island is more than just transportation (as Seabus or (for instance) the Levis-Quebec City or Halifax-Dartmouth ferries are) - the clienteele is 99% recreational, and the ride is just the right length for the scenery, and in fair weather it's clear that a great many people prefer to be outside rather than down below. Those other ferries offer a fast ride, but a much more sterile experience. The new ferry design offers much less outdoor space.

I would be happy if they simply dug out the old blueprints and replicated almost exactly the current design. I'm sure there would need to be updates due to more modern codes etc. and maybe there are better propulsion systems available - but this is indeed a case where the wheelhouse need not be reinvented.

- Paul
 
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Dan416 said:
Clearly I'm not so well-versed in ferry procurement and such, but what about Toronto's ferries makes them so unique that an off-the-shelf design or existing modern design from another city wouldn't work here? For example, the SeaBus in Vancouver. I took it a few times and it seemed to work quite well. If we're moving to a passenger only design, why not use that?
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Toronto is always 'special' ! :->
 
I think to fair degree every ferry operation is bespoke. It is a comparatively small market and each one has to fit a boat into existing terminal limitations or visa versa. That doesn't necessarily mean we couldn't jump on an existing vessel configuration but it might well require terminal changes, so the cost and speed advantages dissipate.
 

Cost to buy 2 new Toronto Island ferries jumps to $92M​

Design changes caused increase from $25M four years ago, committee hears​

Shawn Jeffords · CBC News · Posted: Jul 04, 2024 ​

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A key committee at city hall has approved the purchase of two new ferries to serve Toronto Island, and staff confirmed the price tag for the boats has jumped to $92 million.
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Damen Shipyards Galati will build the ferries in Romania, if city council gives final approval of the tender award later this month. Toronto's ferry fleet consists of four vessels and one historic ship with a total capacity of 2,400 passengers.
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The city began preparations to buy replacement boats in 2015, and city council has changed the specifications of vessel design a number of times, leading to cost escalations.

Initially, the city was going to purchase diesel ferries, but it opted for a more expensive, environmentally-friendly purchase of electric ferries to save $815,600 in operational savings and $642,800 in fuel savings annually.

"The costs of the new vessels are projected to be paid back by these savings within a 20-year period," staff say in a report.
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Coun. Stephen Holyday pressed staff to provide more details on the total lifecycle costs for the ferries. The committee backed his request for estimates that include the cost of maintenance, personnel to operate the vessels and shoreside infrastructure upgrades — not just the purchase price.

"I think it's good governance and good decision-making to have a complete understanding of the costs," he said.
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Interesting that both the Ontario & BC Provincial governments have ordered from this shipyard previously, and it does seem to have experience in electric ferries:
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www.marinelink.com

All-electric Ferries Depart Damen Shipyards Galati for Ontario, Canada

A pair of fully-electric road ferries are now on their way from Damen Shipyards Galati to Lake Ontario, Canada, to begin operations.
www.marinelink.com www.marinelink.com
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thousandislandslife.com

Thousand Islands Life, The Ferries are Here

“These ferries can run 100% electric. They will not only improve operations immediately, they are also ready for the future, as they will each be one of the first of their kind in North America.
thousandislandslife.com thousandislandslife.com

1720110295984.png

www.offshore-energy.biz

Watch: Damen splashes BC Ferries' 5th hybrid-electric ferry

Damen Shipyards Galati in Romania has launched the fifth in a series of six Island Class vessels for the Canadian ferry operator BC Ferries.
www.offshore-energy.biz www.offshore-energy.biz

While these are RORO vehicular ferries, I do hope that we get a design that resembles the current ferries, with large open upper decks.
 
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Dan416 said:
They really should make it possible to pay by Presto. It should be like the SeaBus in Vancouver.
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Many decades ago the island ferries used to be run by the TTC! Of course, that would not be a good idea but paying by PRESTO is a no-brainer and they keep saying they are "studying it". I think the problem is that Presto has a high 'joining fee'.
 
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