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jayme2016

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I'd actually argue the opposite, you're the hug-a-thug type who likes to coddle hardcore criminals, and thats the exact reason why Toronto is in this mess we're in right now with gangs running loose and shooting people on a daily basis

Most gang members are not good people no matter how much you give them or try and help them.
 

Northern Light

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Most gang members are not good people no matter how much you give them or try and help them.

Huh?

The discussion wasn't about treating gang members nicely.

It was about not holding people in jail who haven't yet been convicted of any crime at all.

Can you imagine Jasmine if you were arrested, presumably wrongly, on a false allegation; and you were denied bail, until your trial, 2 years from now????

That wouldn't be fair would it?

Well its not fair to anyone else either.

Jail comes after a conviction, not before; barring necessity. A clear need to protect someone who some people who would be under direct threat/risk if the person awaiting trail were released.

But the onus is on the Crown to establish that, as it should be.

****

Apart from that, yes it is very difficult to turn around a hardened criminal.

The focus needs to be on preventing people from every becoming criminals; and/or intervening at the earliest point, when a 13-year old shoplifts or such; and helping them get straightened-out then.

Its much harder to do later.

That said, in all but the most serious cases, typically involving murder, anyone you put in jail will return to the community in a year, or two, or ten.

At that point; if you have any hope that they will not return to a life of crime and violence; you do need to have made sure, while in prison, that they got the tools to get a legal job.

{High School diploma, skilled trade etc.); that they know how to job search, fill out an application, handle themselves in a job interview); and if they fell into that life due to addiction issues, you'd best try and help them get over those.

All of that help may be for nothing. Maybe your chance of turning them around is 1/3. But ya know; if you don't do that work; your chance of them turning around is closer to 0/3.

That's not about hugging anyone, or being kind; its about self-interest.

I would prefer that person return to society with a better chance of behaving themselves.
 

jayme2016

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There is a couple being held in the Ottawa jail who have been accused of shotting 6 people and sexual assaulting 4 women i don't think many would feel safe have them free why they await there trial.
 

Northern Light

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There is a couple being held in the Ottawa jail who have been accused of shotting 6 people and sexual assaulting 4 women i don't think many would feel safe have them free why they await there trial.

And?

They're in jail.

I wasn't arguing for freeing them.

The argument here is where the default position is.

The default position is free until trial, unless someone is likely to be a danger to the community while awaiting trial.

The above would seem likely to meet that standard.

Where someone accused of non-violent criminal offenses would most likely not (drug possession as an example).
 

Admiral Beez

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Most gang members are not good people no matter how much you give them or try and help them.
Agreed. There are only two ways to deal with gang members, divert their supply of new members through a combination of persuasion and coercion, and jail existing members. I’ve always figured the best place for Canadian jails would be Baffin Island or other far north areas. It would make for good employment for indigenous people and keeps the bangers out of sight, out of mind, a’la throw away the key.
 
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Johnny Au

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Agreed. There are only two ways to deal with gang members, divert their supply of new members through ba combination of persuasion and coercion, and jail existing members. I’ve always figured the best place for Canadian jails would be Baffin Island or other far north areas. It would make for good employment for indigenous people and keeps the bangers out of sight, out of mind, a’la throw away the key.
Devon Island would be excellent. It's the world's largest uninhabited island.
 

Admiral Beez

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Devon Island would be excellent. It's the world's largest uninhabited island.
This one is far enough to make a good start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Slave_Correctional_Complex

As an immigrant myself, I'd also fully support citizenship and residency revocation and deportation for any violent or gang related criminal offences committed by those from other countries. If you catch me entering Canada with a car load of guns for illegal sale, Canadians are fully within their rights to strip me of my Canadian citizenship and ship my criminal arse back to where I came from.
 

Northern Light

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This one is far enough to make a good start https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Slave_Correctional_Complex

As an immigrant myself, I'd also fully support citizenship and residency revocation and deportation for any violent or gang related criminal offences committed by those from other countries. If you catch me entering Canada with a car load of guns for illegal sale, Canadians are fully within their rights to strip me of my Canadian citizenship and ship my criminal arse back to where I came from.

Neither of these ideas would pass constitutional muster.
 

Admiral Beez

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It could be our own Alcatraz, except worse!
Once you Shawshank your way out, you‘ve got bigger problems.

fb911929dcc15a178f85b8461f5632e8.jpg
 

Admiral Beez

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Fresco

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Gangstas again....


I think the entirely of the public houses in the Jane and Driftwood area needs to be demolished, and remade into something akin to new Regent Park.
I like the idea, but the gang-bangers will probably move on to another part of the City
 

gabe

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Admiral Beez

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I like the idea, but the gang-bangers will probably move on to another part of the City
The trick is to scatter them amongst normal civilians, thus diluting their influence over the neighbourhood. In these groups they have too much power. I’ve lived in Cabbagetown, next to Regent Park since 1998 and would never go in there before it was redeveloped. The other side of Gerrard was a dead zone where you’d see bangers just standing about, waiting for a provocation.

But now, I let my teenage kids visit their school chums in Regent, my wife and I walk through the neighbourhood for coffee, etc. And no more bangers..... at least not out in the open, since unlike those who feared them in the past, the local homeowners and residents will call the police.
 

Fresco

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