[Second_in_pie]

Transit City is a great concept, using limited financial resources to expand rapid transit throughout the city.

But thanks for participating with such intelligent dialogue!

It's only a great concept if you assume that subway's some kind of mythic being reserved for other cities. And yet we were given enough money to get huge lengths of subway even at the ridiculously inflated price of $350 million/km, and we get lines prioritized in no logical way whatsoever, that doesn't think for the future at all. Would I rather have 10 km of subway that's going to benefit half the city hugely for decades, if not centuries, or do I want sprawling lines going out to the middle of nowhere which make a tiny dent in transit deficit, and make no concession for the very real future needs of the city? Transit City is a band-aid solution. A band-aid solution when we can actually be getting a bit of what we need.

 

[nfitz]

It's only a great concept if you assume that subway's some kind of mythic being reserved for other cities. And yet we were given enough money to get huge lengths of subway even at the ridiculously inflated price of $350 million/km, and we get lines prioritized in no logical way whatsoever, that doesn't think for the future at all. Would I rather have 10 km of subway that's going to benefit half the city hugely for decades, if not centuries, or do I want sprawling lines going out to the middle of nowhere which make a tiny dent in transit deficit, and make no concession for the very real future needs of the city? Transit City is a band-aid solution. A band-aid solution when we can actually be getting a bit of what we need.

Most of the money for the first phase of Transit City IS for 10 km of subway under Eglinton. And that's what Rob Ford wants to cancel first.

 

[LAz]

You would rather have 4 km of the original Eglinton West heavy rail subway (Black Creek to Allen) vs the 19 km of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT (Jane to Kennedy Station)? With plans for more. You would rather have 15 km less rapid transit as a start?

Make that fiveish kms - to jane. Add that with even more than that up along sheppard, to finally finish that corridor so that this already successful corridor becomes useful.

My start can be done in a shorter time frame than what you have in mind for a start. In the long run I have a superior comprehensive plan. Cheers.

Transit City is a great concept, using limited financial resources to expand rapid transit throughout the city.

Wtf, trams are not rapid transit.

Most of the money for the first phase of Transit City IS for 10 km of subway under Eglinton. And that's what Rob Ford wants to cancel first.

The first subway in north america was a cable car tunnel under a river in Chicago. So I would like you to stop calling that a subway. More correct would be "partially underground tram." If you bother to dig, wtf cap capacity. No sense for long term planning.

A full sheppard line going from downsview to STC is better than an eglinton tram.

 

[nfitz]

Wtf, trams are not rapid transit.

If they run underground in a tunnel at the same speed (and more frequently) than a Toronto-style subway, then yes, they are rapid transit.

To suggest otherwise is astounding. And I don't see any need to swear.

The first subway in north america was a cable car tunnel under a river in Chicago. So I would like you to stop calling that a subway.

I've never referred to anything in Chicago as a subway.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Most of the money for the first phase of Transit City IS for 10 km of subway under Eglinton.

And that's great. But instead of just leaving it to expand further in the future, it's cut off from expansion with an asinine choice of putting LRT across. And then we also have Sheppard being truncated by the award winningly stupid Sheppard LRT. For my only two beefs with the plan, those are pretty glaring flaws, especially since they're the only things that are getting built.
Really, smarten up; build Eglinton as Jane to Don Mills, then use the rest of the money to extend Sheppard, and use the RT money to extend the B-D.

 

[lafard]

Make that fiveish kms - to jane. Add that with even more than that up along sheppard, to finally finish that corridor so that this already successful corridor becomes useful.

Wtf, trams are not rapid transit.

A full sheppard line going from downsview to STC is better than an eglinton tram.

1) Eglinton will be more useful to more people right now than Sheppard would be in 50 years. Ridership on bus only Eglinton exceeds ridership on the sheppard subway. The money is better spent on a long Eglinton line.

2) Trams can be rapid transit, if they're implemented correctly (as in Calgary)

3) Again, that's doubtful. An Eglinton line will be more beneficial on its own, and if interfaced with a downtown relief line its benefits are increased dramatically.

 

[nfitz]

And that's great. But instead of just leaving it to expand further in the future, it's cut off from expansion with an asinine choice of putting LRT across.

???

It will stretch from Pearson to Kennedy. There's nothing stopping them grade-separating other pieces of the LRT in future if necessary. There's nothing stopping them converting it to subway in the future if necessary (but it would be a long, long, way off, given that even the passenger demand for the 2030s is well below that the LRT can handle.

For not much more money, one could simply do it as subway from Jane to Don Mills; but then you would have to change vehicles (twice if your travelling from Victoria Park to Royal York) and the trains from Jane to Don Mills would come less frequently. I don't know how anyone would benefit from this.

build Eglinton as Jane to Don Mills, then use the rest of the money to extend Sheppard, and use the RT money to extend the B-D.

That wouldn't leave enough money to extend Sheppard or build the RT to B-D.

And besides ... two subways to Scarborough Centre? Neither of which by themsleves have enough traffic to support subway other LRT. Only a crazy person would advocate such an irresponsible gravy train of surplus capacity.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

1) Eglinton will be more useful to more people right now than Sheppard would be in 50 years. Ridership on bus only Eglinton exceeds ridership on the sheppard subway. The money is better spent on a long Eglinton line.

2) Trams can be rapid transit, if they're implemented correctly (as in Calgary)

3) Again, that's doubtful. An Eglinton line will be more beneficial on its own, and if interfaced with a downtown relief line its benefits are increased dramatically.

1.1) Compare ridership of Sheppard subway plus the Sheppard E bus as that is a more comparable analogy to Eglinton E than simply looking at the Sheppard subway. Riders still taking buses south to the Danforth line from the Sheppard area would be attracted to a one seat ride to Yonge

1.2 and 3) A complete and transferless trip between STC and Downsview centre (perhaps even York U) is just as usefull as a complete and transferless trip on the Eglinton corridor. To suggest that Eglinton MUST be one mode while a forced transfer on Sheppard E is OK, is asinine and only serves to illustrate one's bias.

2) Calgary Pop: ~1 million Toronto Pop: ~2.5 million :S

 

[Justin10000]

Why would the TTC want to make the same mistake of the Sheppard Stubway on Eglinton? There is no bias. The demand on Eglinton beyond 2030 can be easily handled by LRT|. Why would you spend the extra money on a subway if a cheaper mode can handle the projected ridership?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Make that fiveish kms - to jane.

The original Eglinton West heavy rail subway was only between Allen Road (Spadina subway) and Black Creek Drive. It was not to go to Jane Street. The current plans for Eglinton is to extend the underground subway portion east of Allen Road to the Leslie Street/Don Mills area, the section not including in the original design, with the remainder sections east and west being above ground right-of-way.

 

[gweed123]

Transit City is a great concept, using limited financial resources to expand rapid transit throughout the city.

But thanks for participating with such intelligent dialogue!

Glad to see you got the humour behind my post (hint: it wasn't intended to be intelligent dialogue, it was intended to get away from that rediculous spelling debate that had absolutely no impact on the larger transit discussion at all).

And based on the series of posts since I said what I said, I'd say mission accomplished.

 

[gweed123]

I took a drive down Eglinton West yesterday (from Hurontario to Caledonia actually), and all I could think of when I was driving down the stretch between Martin Grove and Jane was "wow, putting LRT down the middle of this road is a REALLY dumb idea". If there's anything positive that comes out of the TC funding delays, I hope it's a serious re-examination of the western part of the Eglinton LRT (amongst many other things of course, specifically the SLRT). Hopefully a delay of 5-10 years on that part of the project will be enough for someone new to come in and say "wow, so WHY exactly wern't we planning on using the Richview corridor?".

 

[nfitz]

Hopefully a delay of 5-10 years on that part of the project will be enough for someone new to come in and say "wow, so WHY exactly wern't we planning on using the Richview corridor?".

Aren't they supposed to build buildings along the Richview corridor?

Given that the velocity estimates for that piece of the LRT are about 28 km/hr, with only a few minutes saving using grade separation, wasting all that land seems shameful.

 

[gweed123]

Aren't they supposed to build buildings along the Richview corridor?

Given that the velocity estimates for that piece of the LRT are about 28 km/hr, with only a few minutes saving using grade separation, wasting all that land seems shameful.

No, what's shameful is having a perfectly good transportation corridor sitting directly beside an arterial roadway, and instead of putting the LRT in the transit corridor, the city opts to complete rip up and redesign the entire roadway, which would likely cost more than just putting the LRT down the corridor where it should be in the first place! And in the process, will likely screw up the light timing on Eglinton, and turn the street into a traffic nightmare.

This notion of "it needs be down the middle of the road, all other options are stupid and should be ignored" is quite frankly absurd. The corridor was set aside for transportation purposes, USE IT!

 

[nfitz]

This notion of "it needs be down the middle of the road, all other options are stupid and should be ignored" is quite frankly absurd. The corridor was set aside for transportation purposes, USE IT!

It's going to have buildings on it. Do you want to build a city, or a trench?

If demand ever increases to the point where grade separation is justified in 50 to 100 years, then we can tunnel or elevate.