Fresh Start
Banned
Oooooh, 49 people joined a Facebook page. I'm quivering in my boots. 
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- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
urbanboom
Active Member
SimonP
Active Member
I remember looking at a consultant's report on extending transit to the Ottawa airport. Their analysis found only a small minority of those who fly would ever want to take transit. The largest group of fliers are those travelling for business. Business travellers can expense cab rides, and thus almost always travel by taxi. The next largest group of travellers are families going on holiday. For a group of four or more, often with young children and a lot of luggage, transit doesn't make much sense. Even with a subway to the airport, this group would also still cab it or park and fly. According to the Ottawa report, most of the people who would would take transit to the airport are airport employees.
LAz
Active Member
Be it metro or tram, this is a very long distance, so many kms. I think it's quite wrong to plan it all at once. The bloor-danfort line took years to build, and got a few extensions. Similarly, I feel that whatever gets built on eglinton should be seen as something that will take a long time to build.
If one bothers do dig a 12 km tunnel or however long it is gonna be - why on earth not make that a metro line? So much is being invested to dig the thing, that is a downright disgrace to see that investment be put towards this low capacity tram. The central part of eglinton is loaded with people. The only appropriate thing there is a real metro. The young and eglinton intersection (if I remember correctly) for example is hell to drive through at some parts of the day. I remember going nuts just waiting there, as people would be crossing the street so much that only a few cars would get through per green light. Shitloads of people were walking there, even more than at parts of the b-d line. We need more capacity for them.
But yeah, a proponent of a tram would naturally say that the tram can support more than it does, and it would also say under-estimate the ridership there. Sheppard's ridership has exploded. That is an amazing success. If that happens on this proposed eglinton tram line, then that line's screwed. As if crowding on buses was not enough... it would spread to the trams too.
If one bothers do dig a 12 km tunnel or however long it is gonna be - why on earth not make that a metro line? So much is being invested to dig the thing, that is a downright disgrace to see that investment be put towards this low capacity tram. The central part of eglinton is loaded with people. The only appropriate thing there is a real metro. The young and eglinton intersection (if I remember correctly) for example is hell to drive through at some parts of the day. I remember going nuts just waiting there, as people would be crossing the street so much that only a few cars would get through per green light. Shitloads of people were walking there, even more than at parts of the b-d line. We need more capacity for them.
But yeah, a proponent of a tram would naturally say that the tram can support more than it does, and it would also say under-estimate the ridership there. Sheppard's ridership has exploded. That is an amazing success. If that happens on this proposed eglinton tram line, then that line's screwed. As if crowding on buses was not enough... it would spread to the trams too.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You need a reality check.
The conversion – let alone the extension – will cost more than that, and has already been in the planning stage for at least 4 continuous years. A network will cost additional billions (though a Danforth extension would be the backbone of a useful network in Scarborough). Much time was wasted on planning for Mark II because the guy that sold the SRT to the city was put in charge of deciding its future, and then much more time was wasted trying to shoehorn light rail into the plan. No wonder a hideously expensive and useless project is the end result.
The subway won't be extended because the city doesn't want it extended. That's the only reason. What should or needs to happen and what will happen is rarely the same thing, though. It's certainly not what we're getting with the SRT.
The conversion and extension will cost more than a subway extension, and benefit a fraction the number of people. Less than 20% of SRT riders are coming or going NE of STC. The extension beyond STC will move only some of the people currently using the Progress bus...less than 8000 people a day. Actually, the Progress bus will still need to operate, so zero bus routes will be replaced.
Sure, they're claiming that ridership will more than quintuple east of McCowan, but we know that this is nonsense, especially if transit is improved anywhere else nearby, which will preempt anyone from switching from other routes to the SRT extension (not that the nearby 130-series routes are particularly well-used, mind you). The vast majority of people from Malvern and other spots NE of STC will still be taking buses to get to the SRT, especially if they don't build Bellamy or Markham or Milner stations and halt the thing at Sheppard, and since they don't plan on running the line closer to the huge and growing Corporate Drive cluster. The vast majority of Centennial students will also still be transferring to the SRT from other Scarborough bus routes...it's not like more than a fraction of Centennial students are coming from the Danforth subway, so virtually no one benefits from a one seat ride from Kennedy to Centennial. With the plan to funnel Malvern area buses to Sheppard & Progress, this will *subtract* a one-seat ride to STC...this affects many more people because, like it or not, the mall is by far the biggest trip generator in Scarborough.
The growing movement you cite is nothing more than one of a bunch of Facebook groups, all created by one person (probably the same person from Scarborough at that meeting) and joined by a few friends. Most, if not all, of these people would have stuck an "I support the Scarborough subway" sticker to their shirt back in 2006...most people are sheeple and don't know what the difference is between various transit alternatives and most don't care even if they do know. They just want whatever is fastest. If you had gone to the public meetings, you'd have heard people from Malvern complaining about how useless the whole renovation and extension project. Their opinion is drowned out, though, by people who complain about noise and property values and electromagnetic radiation yet are interpreted as having tacitly supported the project since they did not explicitly say they opposed it. That's public consultation.
A guillotined person has enough brain stem left to understand that extending the subway to STC is the only thing that provides any substantial benefit to any substantial number of people. Malvern benefits immensely from such a subway extension, and this would leave room for transit to and through Malvern that was actually useful to actual people. Of course, the >80% of SRT riders that are not from Malvern also benefit, but since they're from Cedarbrae and Woburn and Milliken and Agincourt and STC and not from Malvern the city doesn't care about them.
Also, you can claim there's not enough ridership for a subway extension, but note that the projected ridership for the revamped SRT is 10,000 per hour, that magic number the city likes to toss around as what justifies subway projects. It's also 90,000 per day, which is the same as Finch station...and anyone who's ever used Finch in rush hour knows that the train is basically 'full.' By 20,000 per hour, you're already in the realm of congestion, noticeably reduced comfort, and delays.
nfitz
Superstar
That's somewhat rude.
Here's the reality check. Comparing the cost of a simple 6 km subway to Scarborough Centre Station (SCS) to the cost of conversion (6.5 km) and extending (5.5 km) the SRT to Malvern is comparing apples and oranges.
Yes, we could spend about the same amount of money to build a 6-km subway, as it costs to build a 5.5 km grade-separated extension and do a conversion. That's pretty simple and clear. But that is comparing apples to oranges.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Why is it rude to point out facts? Scarberian is not wrong. Justin keeps insisting that the SLRT is better. He has yet to respond to my post pointing out the flaws of the extension.
I had some sympathy for this project when it was actually planned to terminate at Malvern Town Centre. But if the thing doesn't reach MTC, it is utterly useless (except for providing a luxury LRT service to Centennial College students). That would have meant connections with the Milner, Nugget and Neilson buses. Those are the busiest bus routes from Malvern. They completely lost me when they proposed a solution that isn't even a viable as a replacement for the 134. Seriously. Skipping Milner and Markham? What were they thinking?
Can anybody here point to any bus routes other than Sheppard and Progress which will see riders diverted to the SLRT?
I'd like Justin to tell me why he thinks that's a great idea. Till then, nobody is out of place in suggesting he's ignorant to the facts on the ground.
I had some sympathy for this project when it was actually planned to terminate at Malvern Town Centre. But if the thing doesn't reach MTC, it is utterly useless (except for providing a luxury LRT service to Centennial College students). That would have meant connections with the Milner, Nugget and Neilson buses. Those are the busiest bus routes from Malvern. They completely lost me when they proposed a solution that isn't even a viable as a replacement for the 134. Seriously. Skipping Milner and Markham? What were they thinking?
Can anybody here point to any bus routes other than Sheppard and Progress which will see riders diverted to the SLRT?
I'd like Justin to tell me why he thinks that's a great idea. Till then, nobody is out of place in suggesting he's ignorant to the facts on the ground.
kEiThZ
Superstar
It's not apples and oranges. It's the same corridor and the TTC's explanation given for why a subway could not be built is specifically based on the reason that 1) there isn't enough demand and 2) an extension to Malvern would ameliorate a lot of complaints about ineffective nature of transit in NE Scarborough far better than a subway to STC would. They even hinted at public consultations that the extension would save a lot of people a transfer (since tons of Malvernites could walk to MTC), in an attempt to strike a chord with those of us who have long complained about having two transfers in Scarborough (ie. one less or an easier transfer at MTC instead of at STC). Their presentations even emphasize how much time will be saved travelling form Malvern Town Centre. So if the TTC itself links the Kennedy-STC and STC-Malvern corridors, why do you consider it apples and oranges?
The irony of the SLRT is that it will be both under-utilized and crowded at the same time. Hardly anybody is really going to use the thing until STC (even Centennial is not going to fill the thing as much as some think), and then at STC, wham. The thing will fill up like sardines in a can. And in a few years time we'll be right back where we started, with people complaining about the new SRT and deciding that transit just isn't worthwhile. And if they do extend the thing to Malvern, guess what happens to congestion along the line?
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scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Okay, you need a reality check. Justin10000 mainly posts on this forum to battle the pro-subway crowd, just like you only post mindless contrarian nonsense. He has little (probably no) local knowledge yet he was trying - and failing - to speak for Malvern in an argument with someone from Malvern. The whole point is that the benefits Malvern will supposedly reap from the project are utterly fictitious and that there is no broad public support, just a few dozen friends joining a Facebook group and a few dozen people saying "Fine, build whatever, just make sure it's not noisy and doesn't affect my property values" at public meetings.
Also, you've been repeatedly informed that it's not comparing apples to oranges because the entire debate is over what to do with the SRT. Unless we're talking about actual benefits, of which there are many for a subway extension and few for the conversion options.
kEiThZ
Superstar
In other words, you got nothing and need more time to do your homework. Take all the time you want.
Says the guy who's probably never even been to Malvern. How does an extension that barely touches the edge of Malvern help Malvernites? It does not come anywhere close to the three busiest bus routes from Malvern: Nugget, Milner and Neilson. Unless you want Malvern riders to transfer off the Neilson bus, on to the SELRT and then transfer again at Progress. Two transfers in Malvern just to get to the SLRT. Nice. Even worse for Nugget, and Milner riders. They'd have a third transfer to get on to the Neilson bus!
Or maybe what will actually happen is all those bus riders will keep riding the bus to STC.
Who said it does not justify a subway? I love the trick guys like you use. Draw up the strawman of saying a subway to Malvern isn't justified. Nobody asked for a subway to Malvern. But even by the TTC's own forecasts, there is enough demand to get a subway to STC. Maybe you think that ridership equivalent to that at Finch subway is too low for a subway?
And they don't speak for Malvern either. I'd say the far larger group of residents that showed up at the Community consultation is more reflective of the opinions of Malvernites.
And are you seriously going to suggest 64 yahoos on a Facebook group speak for a community with a population of over 130 000 residents? And by the way, you do understand the difference between Malvern and Scarborough right? And you do understand that "Friends of the Scarborough RT" is likely to include yahoos from all over Scarborough and not just Malvern. So we have 64 people speaking for 600 000+ residents. There's probably more people in Scarborough that believe aliens landed in Morningside Park.
"Guests from Scarborough" aren't Malvernites. I could care less of what an Agincourt resident thinks is good for my community.
Funny. Right before Transit City came up, every Scarborough councillor supported a subway to STC. Miller almost had a revolt on his hands from the Scarborough councillors. That was only appeased by promising that Scarborough would be favoured under Transit City. Do you think an LRT on Morningside was because there's huge demand for transit on Morningside?
I think "growing movement" can be credibly disputed.
As for my "dubious assumptions" please feel free to counter them with facts. If you can show me one bus route from Malvern that will see ridership diverted to the SLRT other the 134 and the 85 I'll change my tone.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Can you show why he's wrong here? Can you show any bus route other than the 134 and 85 that will see a significant diversion of ridership under the currently planned SLRT extension? And the 134 isn't even the busiest bus route out of Malvern. And the 85 is being replaced with the SELRT. So again, can you point out more specifically where Scarberian's reasoning falls short?
It's not apples and oranges. Would you suggest that an extension of the Yonge line is unrelated to what happens on the rest of the Yonge line? It's one corridor. It's a worthwhile question to ask whether money earmarked for the corridor is best employed with a slight conversion and extension or by a much bigger upgrade of the existing service. It's rather naive to think that the money is only available if the line is extended. You know that's not necessarily true.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
A subway extension would be cheaper than the planned conversion & extension. Have you seen the bunker they have planned at Seeppard & Progress? A subway extension would also benefit about 99% of riders, not ~15% of riders. Too bad the train has already departed the station, leaving common sense behind on the platform.
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nfitz
Superstar
Only if you low-ball the subway costs. The extension and conversion is $1.4-billion; and most of that is for the extension, and the new platform at Kennedy. The conversion itself is only a fraction of the budget. To build subway for that money, you'd have to achieve $233-million a kilometre - which is lower than any current planning number.
But even if you could - you just can't compare the numbers. You have to compare the cost of the upgrade - and perhaps the Kennedy platform to the 6-km subway. Anything else is deceptive.
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M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Transit City needs a Plan B: Levy
May 1, 2010
By SUE-ANN LEVY
Read More: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/sueann_levy/2010/04/30/13786856.html
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Frequent TTC user Patricia Sinclair is so tired of hearing Mayor David Miller’s Save Transit City message while riding the subway, she’s tuned out. “I was on the subway yesterday and I heard it again,†she told me Friday. “We’re constantly being bombarded with his damn voice.†She feels the Save Transit City campaign — financed to the tune of $43,000 by Socialist Silly Hall and the TTC — is a “disgrace.†There’s no doubt Sinclair has her own particular interest, seeing as she’s part of the Save Our Sheppard group fighting the 14-km Transit City line planned for Sheppard East.
Living in the far reaches of Scarborough, she wants “rapid reliable transit†but she feels that should be a subway line that makes the Scarborough Town Centre a hub. Nevertheless, she does have a point. Perhaps I’m missing something. But I don’t understand how harassing riders with messages targeted at Premier Dalton McGuinty, running from subway station to subway station to hand out lame literature and using every opportunity to whine about how the province let him down, will get Miller the $4-billion funding commitment he’s looking for to ensure the first four lines of his Transit City plan go ahead. As we’ve heard, probably too many times to count, McGuinty cut $4 billion of the $9.5-billion commitment to Transit City in his March budget — a move greeted with gasps of horror by the mayor.
During a farewell speech to the Board of Trade Thursday, Miller claimed the funding was announced and committed on April 1, 2009 and he can’t let a provincial government take Toronto “for granted.†“That’s why we’re fighting to get the premier to honour his announcement,†he said. Even an April 27 letter from the province to city manager Joe Pennachetti indicating the four lines can “reasonably be completed†in 10 years, was not enough to satisfy the mayor. He said the province has still not committed in writing “to fully putting back†the $4 billion even in the second five years of a 10-year plan.
“If this government can’t deliver what it announces ... I’m extremely concerned,†he said, noting the city even offered to debt finance the $4 billion if the province guaranteed they’d pay back the money after 2015. “We need this transit ... We need this to happen,†he added. I would suggest to Hizzoner that perhaps he shouldn’t be biting the hand that feeds him. Ah,but he does it to hardworking Torontonians all the time. So why should McGuinty differ? Greener, environmental pastures. In the seven years he’s been in office, I’ve never once heard him talk about a Plan B that looks at other sources of funding than those coming from the taxpayer.
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May 1, 2010
By SUE-ANN LEVY
Read More: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/sueann_levy/2010/04/30/13786856.html
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Frequent TTC user Patricia Sinclair is so tired of hearing Mayor David Miller’s Save Transit City message while riding the subway, she’s tuned out. “I was on the subway yesterday and I heard it again,†she told me Friday. “We’re constantly being bombarded with his damn voice.†She feels the Save Transit City campaign — financed to the tune of $43,000 by Socialist Silly Hall and the TTC — is a “disgrace.†There’s no doubt Sinclair has her own particular interest, seeing as she’s part of the Save Our Sheppard group fighting the 14-km Transit City line planned for Sheppard East.
Living in the far reaches of Scarborough, she wants “rapid reliable transit†but she feels that should be a subway line that makes the Scarborough Town Centre a hub. Nevertheless, she does have a point. Perhaps I’m missing something. But I don’t understand how harassing riders with messages targeted at Premier Dalton McGuinty, running from subway station to subway station to hand out lame literature and using every opportunity to whine about how the province let him down, will get Miller the $4-billion funding commitment he’s looking for to ensure the first four lines of his Transit City plan go ahead. As we’ve heard, probably too many times to count, McGuinty cut $4 billion of the $9.5-billion commitment to Transit City in his March budget — a move greeted with gasps of horror by the mayor.
During a farewell speech to the Board of Trade Thursday, Miller claimed the funding was announced and committed on April 1, 2009 and he can’t let a provincial government take Toronto “for granted.†“That’s why we’re fighting to get the premier to honour his announcement,†he said. Even an April 27 letter from the province to city manager Joe Pennachetti indicating the four lines can “reasonably be completed†in 10 years, was not enough to satisfy the mayor. He said the province has still not committed in writing “to fully putting back†the $4 billion even in the second five years of a 10-year plan.
“If this government can’t deliver what it announces ... I’m extremely concerned,†he said, noting the city even offered to debt finance the $4 billion if the province guaranteed they’d pay back the money after 2015. “We need this transit ... We need this to happen,†he added. I would suggest to Hizzoner that perhaps he shouldn’t be biting the hand that feeds him. Ah,but he does it to hardworking Torontonians all the time. So why should McGuinty differ? Greener, environmental pastures. In the seven years he’s been in office, I’ve never once heard him talk about a Plan B that looks at other sources of funding than those coming from the taxpayer.
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Fresh Start
Banned
Between the heavy rail’s-too-noisy-to-listen-to-my-IPod-through comment and the idea that speed is irrelevant (and numerous other quotes from him in the past), I'd say this guy has taken public transit in Toronto approximately never. He ought to familiarize himself with the system he's so hell-bent on bringing down.