[kEiThZ]

It's not like they voted for the person who actually said they where going build subways.

If the SRT makes it all the way to malvern center, then why would someone from there care where the subway ends? Their trip barely changes.

And I was never under the impression that Miller was in favor of any subway expansion, particularly during the campaign

It doesn't matter as much to Malvernites but it does matter to the rest of Scarborough. Also, has been pointed out, even if the SRT makes to Malvern, a lot of Malvernites will still be travelling to STC or Kennedy because the bus routes have to be structured that way (even after the anticipated changes arising from the SRT extension). For these people and every other Scarborough resident that STC subway extension is a big deal.

 

[nfitz]

I love how Miller was deliberately vague on the two transit projects that have long mattered to Scarborough, the BD extension and the Sheppard extension..

I thought he was very specific. Far more specific on new projects than any candidate so far this time (though it is early), and far more specific that Pittfield who merely promised $200-million a year on subway construction.

His plan never pledged termination of Sheppard at Don Mills.

The articles say that "Toronto Mayor David Miller says the city’s transit future rests with buses and streetcars, not subways" and "We can’t wait for subways to be constructed" and "He said the city doesn't have the kind of money to build the expensive subway lines". It was clear in the campaign that he wasn't proposing any subway construction other than the Spadina extension.

Nor is there anything in there about LRT on Sheppard at all.

It talks about rapid transit along Sheppard. It talks about new streetcar lines. It talks about no new subway. On November 11, 2006 the Star wrote of Miller's plans "Think of the St. Clair streetcar right-of-way and multiply it many times, across the city" and "There will be more streetcar rightof-ways in Toronto, the St. Clair line will be complete, and so will the York University subway line". On November 7 the Star wrote about Miller's lead in the polls "Most also support Miller’s election focus on streetcar rights-of-way and dedicated bus lanes".

And while his plan pledged extension of the SRT to Malvern, no where did it pledge that this was coming at the cost of any subway extension to STC.

There were no plans or talk of a subway extension from Kennedy to the STC. There was no talk of a Sheppard extension. Where are you getting this?

I don't understand this desire of your to change history. I can understand that one might object to the current plan. But trying to pretend that it came out of nowhere (well other than Jane and Scarborough-Malvern) and that Miller wasn't quite clear on where he stood on further subway construction after Spadina is not right.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I really do think the SELRT will work great! I think TTC will operate this line very well and prove the critics wrong

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't understand this desire of your to change history. I can understand that one might object to the current plan. But trying to pretend that it came out of nowhere (well other than Jane and Scarborough-Malvern) and that Miller wasn't quite clear on where he stood on further subway construction after Spadina is not right.

It's not a desire to change history. Unfortunately for us, that's how we read and interpreted his platform. And keep in mind that Sheppard already had an outstanding EA that would allow for expansion. So it's pretty hard to imagine that expansion would be exactly zero. Obviously I was not the only one who thought that Miller was not going to halt all subway expansion inside the 416. The concern from those residents is real. And they're the people who voted for Miller. Scarborough has been promised these lines for years (even decades). The sense of betrayal is not going to diminish anytime soon. LRT or no LRT. With every transfer people keep making at Kennedy and at Don Mills, residents are going to keep believing they got shafted.

From a Malvern perspective, you're right, it ain't all that bad....not because of the SELRT, but because we're getting the SRT extension. However, south Scarborough is really left out to dry in this plan. As is the anybody north of Finch (which is not an insignificant chunk of ridership) or maybe even north of McLevin. Personally, I would not have really gotten involved if there was a short subway extension in play (Warden or maybe Agincourt). That would have benefited tons of riders from the North with some rerouted buses on Finch, and maybe even Steeles. The SELRT on the other hand helps only a select crowd who happen to live very near the corridor. It is pure fantasy to imagine that riders from Neilson and Finch who want to head to stops north of the Sheppard would head down to the LRT, transfer, get to Don Mills, transfer again, get to Yonge, transfer, and then head back up.

Likewise, with the SRT extension being in place, what's the ridership for Sheppard out of Malvern? Most riders who are downtown bound will either transfer at Progress or they'll want an interlined service to the BD line. And anybody that's west of Progress will be taking a bus to STC to head down to the BD line. They aren't going to be using the LRT and the Sheppard subway to get downtown.

So I hope you can see why people are scratching their heads over this LRT. The SRT extension on the other hand, even if it isn't in the SOS plan, I do back that project because I think it's a vital link for Malvern.

 

[Rainforest]

Miller's election platform did state a preference of LRT over subways.

However, the implementation details - cost and speed - may, and in fact should, influence the choice of technology. The first draw of Transit City pegged the Sheppard East line at $555 million (and btw, it did anticipate the underground connection to Don Mills subway, although the portal would be west of Hwy 404). Moreover, athough there were no speed projections, it was anticipated that LRT will be only a bit slower than subway.

If we only have $555 million for Sheppard and are choosing between 2 km of subway extension (to Vic Park) or 15 km of trunk LRT line that reaches all the way east and is, say, only 10% slower than the subway - IMO, LRT wins clearly. Riders would be interested to take N-S bus routes to get to LRT, and avoid a long slow E-W bus ride. Thus, LRT would be a real trunk route, not just premium local service for those who live near Sheppard.

Now, the cost projection for Sheppard LRT shot up to $1,189 million (and that might not even be the final figure). At the same time, the projected speed (22 - 23 kph) is closer to a bus (17-18 kph) than to subway (30-32 kph). That eliminates any insentive to transfer from bus routes to LRT. In that case, I don't see how LRT is still a better choice.

 

[nfitz]

At the same time, the projected speed (22 - 23 kph) is closer to a bus (17-18 kph) than to subway (30-32 kph). That eliminates any insentive to transfer from bus routes to LRT. In that case, I don't see how LRT is still a better choice.

Uh ... your math doesn't work If you travel 10 km at 30 km/hr it takes 20 minutes. If you travel 10 km at 22 km/hr it takes 27.3 minutes. If you travel 10 km at 17 km/hr it takes 35.3 minutes. An additional 7.3 minutes for LRT, and then another 8.0 minutes from LRT to Bus. Surely, if anything, the travel time of the LRT is closer to the subway, than the bus. Or more realistically, about half-way between.

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed that the LRT isn't a bit faster; and I think TTC needs to improve the design a bit. But saying that it's closer to Bus than subway is clearly not true.

Though the 17 km/hr estimate for bus seems optimistic. I'm just looking at the TTC schedule. And 85A leaving Don Mills station on a weekday at 5:31 pm arrives at Lapsley Road at 6:11 pm. I measure that as 10 km in 40 minutes ... an average speed of only 15.0 km/hr. At that speed you have 20 minutes with subway versus 27.3 minutes with LRT and 40 minutes with bus. And anyone who has changed at the relatively deep Don Mills is going to tell you they'll save a few minutes with the LRT transfer compared to the bus transfer.

 

[LAz]

Miller's election platform did state a preference of LRT over subways.

However, the implementation details - cost and speed - may, and in fact should, influence the choice of technology. The first draw of Transit City pegged the Sheppard East line at $555 million (and btw, it did anticipate the underground connection to Don Mills subway, although the portal would be west of Hwy 404). Moreover, athough there were no speed projections, it was anticipated that LRT will be only a bit slower than subway.

If we only have $555 million for Sheppard and are choosing between 2 km of subway extension (to Vic Park) or 15 km of trunk LRT line that reaches all the way east and is, say, only 10% slower than the subway - IMO, LRT wins clearly. Riders would be interested to take N-S bus routes to get to LRT, and avoid a long slow E-W bus ride. Thus, LRT would be a real trunk route, not just premium local service for those who live near Sheppard.

Now, the cost projection for Sheppard LRT shot up to $1,189 million (and that might not even be the final figure). At the same time, the projected speed (22 - 23 kph) is closer to a bus (17-18 kph) than to subway (30-32 kph). That eliminates any insentive to transfer from bus routes to LRT. In that case, I don't see how LRT is still a better choice.

Excellent observations. Beware, this makes too much sense to be told to the public. Shut up before they shut you up.





But anyhows, is there any hope of seeing there any subway extension along sheppard? I asked this before a few months ago - but has anything changed now?

 

[Rainforest]

Uh ... your math doesn't work If you travel 10 km at 30 km/hr it takes 20 minutes. If you travel 10 km at 22 km/hr it takes 27.3 minutes. If you travel 10 km at 17 km/hr it takes 35.3 minutes. An additional 7.3 minutes for LRT, and then another 8.0 minutes from LRT to Bus. Surely, if anything, the travel time of the LRT is closer to the subway, than the bus. Or more realistically, about half-way between.

Although your math is correct - travel time for LRT will be about half-way between subway and bus - the practically important question is whether transferring to the new higher-order transit route from the local routes makes sense.

In your example above, the difference between 10 km on bus and 10 km on subway is solid 15 min. Even if 1/3 or 1/2 of that is eaten by the extra transfer, a rider who chooses to take an N-S bus to Sheppard still benefits, compared to E-W bus parallel to Sheppard. And that's relevant if Sheppard subway gets extended to Kennedy: Yonge to Kennedy is about 11.5 km.

But if the difference between 10 km on bus and 10 km on LRT is 8 min (and note a slightly less frequent LRT service and less comfortable waiting area), taking an extra transfer won't make sense.

That LRT line will help those who take Sheppard transit already; but it won't attract anybody from parallel bus routes.

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed that the LRT isn't a bit faster; and I think TTC needs to improve the design a bit. But saying that it's closer to Bus than subway is clearly not true.

Though the 17 km/hr estimate for bus seems optimistic. I'm just looking at the TTC schedule. And 85A leaving Don Mills station on a weekday at 5:31 pm arrives at Lapsley Road at 6:11 pm. I measure that as 10 km in 40 minutes ... an average speed of only 15.0 km/hr. At that speed you have 20 minutes with subway versus 27.3 minutes with LRT and 40 minutes with bus. And anyone who has changed at the relatively deep Don Mills is going to tell you they'll save a few minutes with the LRT transfer compared to the bus transfer.

Don Mills to Lapsley is a more congested part of Sheppard East, so if the bus makes 15 kph there, it is consistent with 17 kph average for the whole route. Btw, light rail also will be a bit slower on the western section of Sheppard East, since the average distance between stops is smaller there.

 

[Dan416]

The whole point of this exercise on Sheppard is pointless. What's the use of an intermediate technology like LRT when the Sheppard Subway is yet to be completed? The Sheppard Subway was never meant to run any further than STC was it? So sure we can have SELRT east of STC or east of Agincourt wherever you wanna pass the torch. But the fact remains that this is a rush job that helps no one. It won't make the Sheppard Subway more useful. It won't give more people a transferless ride. It won't improve travel times significantly. It won't be cheap for what it is.

 

[Rainforest]

But anyhows, is there any hope of seeing there any subway extension along sheppard? I asked this before a few months ago - but has anything changed now?

A 90% chance that they will build LRT, which is funded and a large part of design work completed; and build no subway extension.

But since the LRT construction starts from the east and the carhouse will be near Meadowvale, there exists a chance to revisit this route and add subway extension, moving the subway / LRT transfer point further east (for example to Kennedy or Agincourt Mall).

 

[Dan416]

A 90% chance that they will build LRT, which is funded and a large part of design work completed; and build no subway extension.

But since the LRT construction starts from the east and the carhouse will be near Meadowvale, there exists a chance to revisit this route and add subway extension, moving the subway / LRT transfer point further east (for example to Kennedy or Agincourt Mall).

That does seem the best we can hope for at this time. At least it'd leave open the possibility of the Sheppard Subway connecting with STC to the south as it was supposed to.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Finishing the job that's been started, you say?
Whoah! Who's ever heard of that? Crazy talk, that.

PS: It won't happen because it makes too much sense.

 

[nfitz]

PS: It won't happen because it makes too much sense.

That's why everyone is against it ... because it makes so much sense.

There is neither the demand for subway, nor the cash to build it. It makese no sense!

 

[LAz]

A 90% chance that they will build LRT, which is funded and a large part of design work completed; and build no subway extension.

But since the LRT construction starts from the east and the carhouse will be near Meadowvale, there exists a chance to revisit this route and add subway extension, moving the subway / LRT transfer point further east (for example to Kennedy or Agincourt Mall).

Jee, my highest hopes were to see it go as far as victoria park. *sigh*

There is neither the demand for subway, nor the cash to build it. It makese no sense![

There is enough demand. For cash - we could say that there is not enough cash to build tram-city. We need rapid transit, not tram-transit. You ignore that there are benefits that can not necessarily be quantified into raw numbers. The subway is faster and the way to go. It would be nice if we saw the sheppard subway going from jane to stc.

 

[SunriseChampion]

It makes no sense to start something and not finish it.

Where the hell in life would you and I be able to get away with that, were other people to be concerned? Nowhere, that's where. I work in construction and I can't understand how throwing down half-baked and half-completed infrastructure projects is supposed to be adequate.

Look, I'm not even necessarily a proponent of subways over all else, it just seriously pisses me off that they plan on just shitting on what was supposed to be a proper connection to STC (the SRT being a joke of a mistake) and was never completed instead of, you know, FINISHING WHAT WAS STARTED.