[kettal]

On the flip side you have guys like Juan here who think every complaint is unreasonable and that politicians should summarily dismiss any input from residents. Democracy is just such an inconvenience you know.

The right balance is somewhere in between. Dictatorships sometimes bring progress, but nothing has ever been accomplished by trying to appease everybody.

 

[kEiThZ]

Would I be wrong if I said that the only things most of those people know about TC LRT's is what you are telling them?

And I can't imagine you presenting them with a fair viewpoint.

Like I said, I had nothing to do with the opinions expressed the residents in this article. SOS hasn't done much, yet, beyond working on the plan and the website. So I highly doubt I am impacting anybody's view. I routinely meet people who are excited about the SELRT and they tell me that they imagine something like the SRT with nice stations at every intersection. I just tell them, " No. It's more like a long streetcar." That's hardly colouring anybody's view. You tell me how you would explain what LRT is to a layman. Am I wrong in what I tell people?

 

[kEiThZ]

The right balance is somewhere in between. Dictatorships sometimes bring progress, but nothing has ever been accomplished by trying to appease everybody.

If that's the view, then why are people so upset with Harper and the Conservatives? They're style of governance is pretty close to what you are suggesting here.

 

[Voltz]

Like I said, I had nothing to do with the opinions expressed the residents in this article. SOS hasn't done much, yet, beyond working on the plan and the website. So I highly doubt I am impacting anybody's view. I routinely meet people who are excited about the SELRT and they tell me that they imagine something like the SRT with nice stations at every intersection. I just tell them, " No. It's more like a long streetcar." That's hardly colouring anybody's view. You tell me how you would explain what LRT is to a layman. Am I wrong in what I tell people?

I've met people who have assumed the same, but I would tell them it is more than just a long streetcar, particularly since people in Toronto would also have assumptions when hearing the word streetcar, just as they would when hearing term RT.

 

[kettal]

If that's the view, then why are people so upset with Harper and the Conservatives? They're style of governance is pretty close to what you are suggesting here.

People are upset because they're not being appeased to. Talk about a circular question.

 

[kEiThZ]

I've met people who have assumed the same, but I would tell them it is more than just a long streetcar, particularly since people in Toronto would also have assumptions when hearing the word streetcar, just as they would when hearing term RT.

Okay. Define more than a streetcar in layman's terms.

The average person doesn't care about stop spacing for example. And I daresay that if they ever found out they'd have to walk even further to catch the thing, it's unlikely to make the LRT sound even better. Nor do people care all that much about signal priority. To the average person this is a very, very nice streetcar.

 

[nfitz]

You know they used to have a word for people that thought their wisdom should be imposed on locals in a different place: colonialists. This is downtown colonialism at its best.

What are you talking about? Miller ran in the last election on the campaign of building LRT down Sheppard East instead of a subway. Look at the election results in that part of Scarborough - Miller won, resoundingly in Malvern.

The three wards most in question are 40, 41, and 42. Miller got 53.4% of Ward 40, 57.0% of Ward 41, and 65.1% of Ward 42. Generally Miller's support in this area was similiar to higher than other parts of the cities. Pittfield's promise of subway expansion would benefit these wards the most but she only got 30.6% of Ward 40, 28.9% of Ward 41, and 25.3% of Ward 42 - yet city-wide she got 32.2%.

Most of Malvern is in Ward 42 which seems to have supported Miller the most.

Perhaps there is a word for people who make false claims?

 

[kettal]

You know they used to have a word for people that thought their wisdom should be imposed on locals in a different place: colonialists. This is downtown colonialism at its best. Streetcars work in the core. That means they must work in Scarborough!

haha I love this one. Which downtown colonialists are building the Hurontario LRT ? How about Waterloo LRT, or Hamilton LRT? These downtown Toronto types sure have a lot of magical powers.

I hope you are fighting against all these disgusting acts of colonialism!

 

[kEiThZ]

What are you talking about? Miller ran in the last election on the campaign of building LRT down Sheppard East instead of a subway. Look at the election results in that part of Scarborough - Miller won, resoundingly in Malvern.

The three wards most in question are 40, 41, and 42. Miller got 53.4% of Ward 40, 57.0% of Ward 41, and 65.1% of Ward 42. Generally Miller's support in this area was similiar to higher than other parts of the cities. Pittfield's promise of subway expansion would benefit these wards the most but she only got 30.6% of Ward 40, 28.9% of Ward 41, and 25.3% of Ward 42 - yet city-wide she got 32.2%.

Most of Malvern is in Ward 42 which seems to have supported Miller the most.

Perhaps there is a word for people who make false claims?

You know as well as I do that the election in question was hardly fought on transit to begin with. And that Transit City was not even a policy at that point. Can you show me election literature which shows plans to halt expansion of the Sheppard subway and build LRT instead?

Suggesting that he had a mandate for Transit City is like suggesting that Bush had a mandate to invade Iraq after his first election.

 

[kEiThZ]

haha I love this one. Which downtown colonialists are building the Hurontario LRT ? How about Waterloo LRT, or Hamilton LRT? These downtown Toronto types sure have a lot of magical powers.

I hope you are fighting against all these disgusting acts of colonialism!

Waterloo and Hamilton are almost pre-metro systems. They are closer to Ottawa's conversion of the Transitway than they are to anything Transit City related. Hurontario is the only one that's similar. And for Mississauga that's a huge step. But they don't have an existing subway which was planned to be extended.

In my books, the imposition of Transit City on Scarborough is no different than the imposition of the SRT a few decades back. It came to be loathed by residents. And in the fullness of time, I doubt that people will have high praise for these LRTs...simply because they really won't change travel patterns for a lot of people, unless you live right near the corridor.

 

[Inkarnate]

I'm not fussed anymore to be honest. As long as they build it right, I don't care if it's subway or LRT. I really don't.

I'm moving far out of Toronto by the end of this year anyway.

 

[nfitz]

You know as well as I do that the election in question was hardly fought on transit to begin with.

Elections are seldom on a single issue, they are though on several many.

Suggesting that he had a mandate for Transit City is like suggesting that Bush had a mandate to invade Iraq after his first election.

Bush didn't mention Iraq in the elections. Miller did campaign on surface LRT expansion. What's with this trying to change history?

Can you show me election literature which shows plans to halt expansion of the Sheppard subway and build LRT instead?

It was well documented at the time. Here's an example. I just went into the Toronto Library's website and logged in to pull out this article, from page R11 of the October 26, 2006 Toronto Star; top-right corner.

Miller reveals transit plan

Favours streetcars over underground
No time to wait for subways, he says

DONOVAN VINCENT, CITY HALL BUREAU

Toronto Mayor David Miller says the city’s transit future rests with buses and streetcars, not subways.

“Subways are great. They’re fast and efficient, but we all know that new stations are only one piece of the puzzle. The fact is subways are expensive,” he said Tuesday as he unveiled the transit strategy that is part of his election campaigning.

He proposed a plan with little new and nothing grandiose, but rather an approach that continues the city’s trend toward dedicated routes for buses and streetcars. His challenger Jane Pitfield, on the other hand, promises to kill the St. Clair Ave. W. streetcar right-of-way and build two kilometres of new subway line a year for 25 years. Miller also promised a discounted “U-pass’’ for university and college students that would automatically be part of their school fees. “I’m going to make it happen,’’ Miller told reporters on hand at Downsview Station. Miller said the city doesn’t have time to wait for subways. “My vision for the future of Toronto Is a city that moves by public transit. Our city is big and growing fast. We can’t wait for subways to be constructed. We need to make our surface transportation — streetcars and buses — as reliable, as comfortable, as fast as the subway,” Miller said, adding that’s why he favours the $68-million St. Clair right-of-way.

He estimated that it costs more than $200 million a kilometre to build a subway line. Pitfield has pegged the figure at $100 million.

Miller’s transit plan also includes:
- A dedicated bus line on Yonge St. from Finch Ave. to Steeles Ave.;
- A dedicated bus line on Kingston Rd. from Victoria Park Ave. to Eglinton Ave.;
- Light rapid transit through the east Bayfront and Portlands;
- Light rapid transit along Don Mills Rd. from Steeles Ave. to downtown.

He steered clear of putting a price tag on his transit plan, saying some of the projects are still being reviewed or undergoing environmental assessments. Some of them have already been alluded to in the city’s $50 million a year Transit City proposal, and the Waterfront Revitalization plan.

His strategy also included “vision” projects, such as extending and upgrading the Scarborough RT into Malvern and beyond, and a rapid transit connection that links the Sheppard subway line to the Scarborough Town Centre. He vowed to continue to fight for the extension of the Spadina subway line to York University, a $2-billion project that has the backing of Toronto, York Region and the province, but still awaits financial approval from Ottawa. He also promised to speed up the implementation of Toronto’s bike plan and support the construction of a rail link to the airport as long as it doesn’t physically cut Weston off from its business community. He pledged to buy quiet, accessible and faster light rail cars to replace aging streetcars, and fight for funding through a National Transit Strategy.

A CTV article from the same period talks about "A dedicated transit corridor along Finch Avenue to open a new route that connects north Etobicoke and north Scarborough to the subway", "Establishing a west waterfront rapid transit line that will connect west Etobicoke to Union Station", "Extending and upgrading the Scarborough RT into Malvern and beyond", "Building dedicated rapid transit along Eglinton Avenue that will connect to the St. Clair street right-of-way to the airport; and", "Building a rapid transit connection that will connect the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Town Centre". Doesn't this all sound familiar? It's evolved a little - mostly with the Jane LRT and Scarborough Malvern LRT ... but Transit City was clearly part of the 2006 election; I certainly remember it, and I thought it was discussed here at the time.

 

[kEiThZ]

I love how Miller was deliberately vague on the two transit projects that have long mattered to Scarborough, the BD extension and the Sheppard extension. His plan never pledged termination of Sheppard at Don Mills. Nor is there anything in there about LRT on Sheppard at all. And while his plan pledged extension of the SRT to Malvern, no where did it pledge that this was coming at the cost of any subway extension to STC. There's always been an understanding in the community that an SRT extension to Malvern would not necessarily preclude a subway extension to STC. Most of us thought his statements were honouring what he thought were long standing commitments.

Knowing what I know now, I certainly would not have voted for him if I had understood the direction he was taking with transit. At the time, everybody I knew thought he supported at least some subway expansion into Scarborough. Who knew, I was supposed to read between the lines to predict he would kneecap subway expansion into Scarborough for good? When you're told somebody is going to build a rapid transit connection from Don Mills to STC, and there's already a plan for a subway, and the line starts at a subway line that was supposed to be extended and was designed to be extended, was I wrong to imagine that it might be a subway? This is exactly the bait and switch I was talking about. And I find it incredibly galling that people who support this tactic are now suggesting that Scarborough residents should have known better than to fall for this bait and switch.

 

[Voltz]

I love how Miller was deliberately vague on the two transit projects that have long mattered to Scarborough, the BD extension and the Sheppard extension. His plan never pledged termination of Sheppard at Don Mills. Nor is there anything in there about LRT on Sheppard at all. And while his plan pledged extension of the SRT to Malvern, no where did it pledge that this was coming at the cost of any subway extension to STC. There's always been an understanding in the community that an SRT extension to Malvern would not necessarily preclude a subway extension to STC. Most of us thought his statements were honouring what he thought were long standing commitments.

Knowing what I know now, I certainly would not have voted for him if I had understood the direction he was taking with transit. At the time, everybody I knew thought he supported at least some subway expansion into Scarborough. Who knew, I was supposed to read between the lines to predict he would kneecap subway expansion into Scarborough for good? When you're told somebody is going to build a rapid transit connection from Don Mills to STC, and there's already a plan for a subway, and the line starts at a subway line that was supposed to be extended and was designed to be extended, was I wrong to imagine that it might be a subway? This is exactly the bait and switch I was talking about. And I find it incredibly galling that people who support this tactic are now suggesting that Scarborough residents should have known better than to fall for this bait and switch.

It's not like they voted for the person who actually said they where going build subways.

If the SRT makes it all the way to malvern center, then why would someone from there care where the subway ends? Their trip barely changes.

And I was never under the impression that Miller was in favor of any subway expansion, particularly during the campaign

 

[GraphicMatt]

Hah, I didn't know Pitfield had estimated subway costs at $100m/km. Good thing no one took that part of her platform seriously.