[cdl42]

Although I have far more to say, it's getting late and I have to head up to Pearson tomorrow morning.

Just wanted to point out that the Weston Sub corridor is mega-wide. Go to Bloor GO station some time... it's easy to visualise 8 tracks fitting in the corridor. It only narrows down a bit north of Church Street in Weston. There is plenty of room for extra services in the corridor.

 

[dashingdan]

I could have sworn I read something somewhere about the possibility of a GO station in Bolton, but I don't remember where I read it, if it was official, or just some fantasy. I think they're just protecting some land for a station if the possibility arises.

 

[jeicow]

Bloor to MCC is not an automatic...there's no serious proposals to do so. It'd be, what, an hour long trip on the subway? Yeah, that'll be popular. Anyway, B/D definitely can't handle many more riders during rush hour - you can still almost always get on at any car at Castle Frank or Christie but it's not at all comfortable, and there's no significant room for growth.

The subway ride would still be quicker than the current ride to Islington/Kipling and then switching over to a MCC bus. Pretty much every bus that leaves Islington during rush hour, and most of the day/evening are standing room only from Islington to MCC and that trip ususally takes at least 20-30 minutes so any improvement to speed up the ride would be a huge benefit. You also have to remember that not everyone would use it to go to TO. It would help for intracity travel in Sauga, as any way to speed up connects between MCC and heavy travelled routes like the 1/5 would help. But who knows- it will likely take the end of Hazel + 20 years before it'd even look like a remote possibility considering the current rate of expansion but hey- the Liberals have been shaky the last few years so they might want to buy some more 905 votes ;-)

 

[doady]

Thanks guys! I thought you were all going to hate my map so I was afraid to look at this thread until now. Your feedback is helpful, thank you very much, I will definitely make some changes. I'm sure you can find many flaws if you look long enough (I occasionally find some myself that I have to fix, including a glaring omission of an existing streetcar to Howard Park station, even though I put that station there to connect to it).

I will probably be changing the DRL line a little (including moving the stops in East York), changing some station names, extending the ALRT lines to Oshawa, possibly extending Bloor-Danforth subway to SCC and streetcar to the portlands, MCC-Union connection, and some other minor things.

Oh, and get that damn streetcar off Finch! I didn't even notice the streetcar lines at first. Does that mean that the Yonge subway north of Finch will be a tunneled streetcar? If there's any 2km in the entire that would be most suitable for a subway extension, it's Yonge to Steeles...anything other than a subway just isn't good enough there.

Scarberian, I did not extend the subway to Steeles because I think Finch is a better place for different modes of transit to connect; the ALRT and Finch LRT connect there too. I suppose the Yonge subway could just be extended to Langstaff as someone suggested; that is a suitable regional terminal too.

and both of your Shepard West lines go almost to but don't reach the airport, which makes no sense

I don't know what you mean by this... can you elaborate

Yeah I guess a streetcar along Finch would totally screw with your Jane-Finch jog, but oh well. And how can a subway become a streetcar tunnel? Paging Dr. Bonkers! I think what Doady meant was that's where the fare zone changes, though Cummer/Drewry walk-ins may not like that much.

Socialwoe, the map does not show any fare zone changes. The Yonge and Yonge North lines are completely separate. Yonge is a heavy rail subway, Yonge North is a light rail subway that becomes a streetcar north of Rutherford.

Yeah some station names are blunders. Most of all Downsview. Think it's too late to change the name to Sheppard West so that the new Sheppard West gets named Chesswood instead? It sorta ruins the fluidity of Spadina stns when all of a sudden we shift from "-- West" to arbitrary community name.

Are we looking at the same map? First of all, none of the stations on the Spadina line have the word "West" in their name (I changed them because they are no longer the westernmost stations on those streets). Secondly, Chesswood is not the name of a subway station at all, let alone the name of a station on the Spadina subway. Chesswood is the name of a commuter rail station and it named after a nearby street, not a community.

Questions for Doady:
- Would the Shoppers World-Main St N streetcar be part of the Hurontario Line? I would make the Hurontario line one route Port Credit to DT Brampton, and stop it there - buses can do the rest of the work, I think.

Spmarshall, if a streetcar becomes a subway it would be shown as underground first (dashed line) and the stops would be coloured, though it is a little hard to see. I could post a larger scale version of the map, but the file size of the map is big enough as it is.

I did not make the Main streetcar an extension of the Hurontario subway on the map though it easily could be. I think a problem with terminating the Hurontario line in Downtown Brampton is that, from what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be all that much space on the surface for LRT trains of any length to loop and it would probably have to be underground.

 

[doady]

I would probably remove the hydro corridor mode just because the Finch LRT makes a better connection to Rexdale and the Sheppard Line meets it in the hydro corridor anyways.

The Finch hydro corridor gives North York Centre the commuter rail connection though. I think it is the hub the ALRT network there. The ALRT in the hydro corridor and streetcar serve different purposes and I am not sure if the hydro corridor is close enough to Finch to affect it too much, especially east of Yonge. But I can see what you mean because for a long time the map only had the ALRT and no Finch streetcar; I added that in very late.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

possibly extending Bloor-Danforth subway to SCC

Yes, do it Why on earth should Malvern get a subway before STC? With the mall, civic centre, condos and offices, in addition to the bus terminal, STC very obviously warrants a subway connection.

Scarberian, I did not extend the subway to Steeles because I think Finch is a better place for different modes of transit to connect; the ALRT and Finch LRT connect there too. I suppose the Yonge subway could just be extended to Langstaff as someone suggested; that is a suitable regional terminal too.

I defy anyone to come up with a better place to 2km of new subways than Yonge to Steeles. Can't be done. I'd take buses off the road and dozens of new towers would sprout there. It might as well go all the way to Langstaff - by the time that happens, all kinds of regional rail will be in place to prevent overcrowding. I'm sure it'll be well used even up to Langstaff, which isn't too far out, especially when compared to the distances other lines might go out (Vaughan, Malton, STC, even the Eglinton line).

Also, why would Finch need a streetcar when the ALRT line is a few minutes walk away? (edit - between the ALRT and the extended Sheppard line, there won't be significant demand for travel along long portions of Finch). A streetcar wouldn't improve travel times, but it would reduce frequency. Bump the Don Mills line up to Finch (and you could remove a few stops, like Duncairn) and, given the other improvements, I don't see more being needed...most of Finch isn't Avenues-designated, anyway. The Finch bus is one of the few major bus routes that functions well as is - sure, sucks up a lot of buses now but projects like the ALRT lines would remove the need for many of them.

I don't know what you mean by this... can you elaborate

I meant that both your Sheppard line and socialwoe's Sheppard line travel through a whole lot of nothing west of Downsview to get to the industrial areas next to the 409/airport, but they don't actually reach the airport, requiring transferring to other routes to get there...so, what's the point of it? The Belfield area on your plan would already be served by 3 rapid transit lines, so a Sheppard line is complete overkill...it might as well run in an arc instead from Downsview to somewhere near York, along Finch, then down through Humber and Woodbine to the airport, which would bring to subway to a whole series of places all neatly strung along in a line.

 

[spmarshall]

I did not make the Main streetcar an extension of the Hurontario subway on the map though it easily could be. I think a problem with terminating the Hurontario line in Downtown Brampton is that, from what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be all that much space on the surface for LRT trains of any length to loop and it would probably have to be underground

Most modern LRT trains do not need to loop - they're double sided, so they'd terminate like subway trains. It is probably a good idea to underground here anyway, as Main St is awfully narrow anyway and would get caught in traffic (it is especially bad when the GO Trains arrive in the PM)

 

[unimaginative2]

Downsview was named by a local contest and vote. It seems fair to keep the neighbourhood's choice.

On a tangentially related note, have you guys heard about the movement to rename Dupont station Casa Loma?

While I think that it would ultimately have been quite a bad thing for the rail industry, there certainly would've been benefits for Toronto if CN and CP had merged their eastern operations as they had been discussing. They were considering consolidating all their freight service on the York Sub to Mac Yard, freeing up the North Toronto line.

 

[wyliepoon]

On a tangentially related note, have you guys heard about the movement to rename Dupont station Casa Loma?

Hopefully it doesn't go through. First of all the station is on Dupont. Secondly, I don't want to associate this modern work of subway art with a castle- architecturally this just doesn't seem right.

 

[spmarshall]

Downsview was named by a local contest and vote. It seems fair to keep the neighbourhood's choice.

The TTC also chose the lame-o name-o of the "Toronto Rocket" for the new subway cars as part of a "contest".

 

[socialwoe]

A rail tunnel several miles long to serve an airport that doesn't exist...brilliant!

Oh silly me for not really caring to look at a map beyond the Zoo to know where the proposed airport would be in relation to the train tracks. I just suggested the nodes, you seriously think a wye can't be added to an existing line like the Blue 22 proposal suggesting to wye Geogretown GO to hit Pearson?

1km spacing on a GO line???

You had to test me, didn't you? Scarborough to Eglinton 1 km. Eglinton to Guildwood 1 km. Scarborough to Kennedy 1 km. McCowan to Markham 1 km. Markham to Mount Joy 1 km. Rutherford to Maple 1 km. I rest my case!!

This is the first time in this thread that you've acknowledge that 1. GO exists, and 2. it might one day be integrated (both the fare and the network) with the TTC.

Okay my turn:
1. I put subways out to every existing and even new (Bethridge) GO stns except Old Cummer to guarantee nearby residents a dedicated all-day rapid transit link.
2. I largely ignored GO because it didn't factor in well to local transit issues. Most Torontonians can't afford a monthly Metropass let alone pay for two systems. The only inetgration I envision is a free 416 commute for transfer holders with security checkpoints at the seven gateways (Long Branch, Kipling, Etobicoke North, York U or Chesswood, Old Cummer, Miliken, Rouge Hill) and greater frequency of ride (every 30 mins 6 a.m. -11 p.m.).

The west branch of the DRL does not need to follow the rail line. Someone from the west end could probably suggest better routes, but there's not very many of them that post here (and it would take a local to suggest creative alternatives based on travel patterns...looking at a map just doesn't work).

Since you favor north-side lines so much and have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Jane-Finch and VCC areas, why couldn't it route from Weston SUB and Jane near Trethewey up to VCC, hence keeping Sheppard in it's own alignment and give your precious DRL something more to do than obstruct the validity of the Eglinton Line.

Bloor to MCC is not an automatic...there's no serious proposals to do so. It'd be, what, an hour long trip on the subway? Yeah, that'll be popular. Anyway, B/D definitely can't handle many more riders during rush hour - you can still almost always get on at any car at Castle Frank or Christie but it's not at all comfortable, and there's no significant room for growth.

So if we entered Mississauga, where it'd go? I told you before we don't really need to enter the 905 at all if the load placed on Bloor is spread out evenly on a vertical scale whereby Brampton enters via Sheppard, Pearson via Eglinton, VCC via Sherway and Port Credit via Long Branch. The pressure you want to place on regional centres (STC, VCC, MCC) will only result in overload, when several well distributed terminals can accomplish the same as time-consumingly drawing passengers from the four corners of a suburb into one place only to shuttle them out again. Growth lies in creating additional feeder lines to subtract from Bloor's load hence Rexdalers use Sheppard instead, Mt Dennisons use Eglinton, Mimicoens on Queen! TO BE CONTINUED...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I just suggested the nodes, you seriously think a wye can't be added to an existing line like the Blue 22 proposal suggesting to wye Geogretown GO to hit Pearson?

A wye to Uxbridge? Why??? Oh, I know. Uxbridge has lses than 20,000 people, so that automatically requires them to have rapid transit...it's places that have over 100,000 people that are excluded.

You had to test me, didn't you? Scarborough to Eglinton 1 km. Eglinton to Guildwood 1 km. Scarborough to Kennedy 1 km. McCowan to Markham 1 km. Markham to Mount Joy 1 km. Rutherford to Maple 1 km. I rest my case!!

Did you really think I wouldn't check your figures? Well, Eglinton to Guildwood is over 2 miles. Scarborough to Eglinton is also over 3km. Scarborough to Kennedy is only a shade over 2km, though, so you're only very wrong on that one. McCowan to Markham = 2.3km. Markham to Mount Joy = over 2km. Rutherford to Maple = over 2km.

If a GO line had stops spaced 1-2km for a long distance, the line would be so slow that no one would choose it over their car.

This is the first time in this thread that you've acknowledged that 1. GO exists, and 2. it might one day be integrated (both the fare and the network) with the TTC.

I largely ignored GO because it didn't factor in well to local transit issues. Most Torontonians can't afford a monthly Metropass let alone pay for two systems.

Well, that was fleeting.

Since you favor north-side lines so much and have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Jane-Finch and VCC areas, why couldn't it route from Weston SUB and Jane near Trethewey up to VCC, hence keeping Sheppard in it's own alignment and give your precious DRL something more to do than obstruct the validity of the Eglinton Line.

No, the Weston line would go NW...the Spadina line and the Sheppard line already go towards Jane. In a radial subway network, two spokes should not end up in the same place.

So if we entered Mississauga, where it'd go?

It may never enter Mississauga. Even if it does, it may never go to MCC. There's precedent for not going on to obvious locations further out - Spadina didn't go to York U, Yonge didn't go to Steeles, Danforth didn't go to STC, etc.

 

[socialwoe]

they started building it!

OMFG! When the heck did construction begin?! :eek

That's debatable...stations in the east are surprisingly well-located.

Well ain't that the truth. Liard/Overlea, Leslie/Eglinton, VP/Lawrence, Warden/Ellesmere, McCowan/Sheppard and Morningside/Finch alone would be a nice disection of major routes and travel times. If only it wasn't just for the AM/PM rush crowd.

That's a terrible idea...there's nothing on Sheppard west of Jane (and both of your Shepard West lines go almost to but don't reach the airport, which makes no sense).

If one thinks of Dixon/Martin Grove Stn. as interlined one branch heads up to Albion/Kipling, the other to Pearson. If demands warranted it Sheppard trains could easily run along the Dixon portion of Eglinton line a la St. Geogre which has both upper and lower stations interlining. In any event I figured Eglinton through the virtuosity of being closer to the downtown would be the more heavily used line of the two to pennate Pearson that's why I had Sheppard veer back north.

Everybody's fantasy map includes an Eglinton line...your Renforth and Rouge Hill portions make you Eglinton line ridiculous, though.

Why ridiculous, because it's the most extensive proposal to date? Because its the only line to connect (almost) Durham and Peel Regions? I thought Renforth/Eglinton was crucial to the MT busway and was even going to get a branch of the Pearson People Mover. Check Wikipedia. The fantasy map there as well as mentioned on Transit Toronto and other blogs would have Eglinton route up to Dixon (yes it's not just industries up there; corporate, congress and trade centres as well plus a large cluster of hotels/motels at Carlingview) then down Renforth. Shock and awe eh? If Eringate and Centennial Park are the complaint; one has a major mall, new housing and schools nearby, the other: think of CP as a venue should the Olympics ever come to Toronto a mere 3 subway stations away from the airport.

As for Rouge Hill, GO saw fit to put a stop there, numerous townhouses springing up, numerous bus routes serve the area, it just seemed like a good place to end mass transit. Routing along Lawson instead of Lawrence was done to a. hit UTSC/Highland Creek b. east of Manse there's nothing on Lawrence anyway.

Again, any fantasy map would have one, but yours also has silly bits at the end.

Silly bits, ha! If I didn't route Queen upto and along Kingston Rd. it would follow VP to the BD station. Bingham, Gerrard, new south entrance reaching Shopper's World, that would be the alternative. However I still think the routing benefits residents of Scarborough Junction and Cliffside better than the insipid bus routings of southeast Scarborough today. 69 Warden South, 20 Cliffside, 12abc Kingston? Stupid routing to say the least. As for the west, there is absolutely zippo on the Queensway to warrant a subway. My goodness not even the bus runs regularly and when it does no one's riding it much. Unless you're enamoured with IKEA I don't know how it's not silly to ignore tens of thousands along the Lakeshore!

You seem to be rewriting history.

"Hurontario LRT should run the full length from Port Credit to Brampton GO. If the subway goes to MCC it'd run concurrently with LRT between Dundas and Burnhamthrope." -for reference see page 8.

Also a bad idea.

I think it's the best aspect of his map. Ditto!

This is why we laugh at you.

Whatever!

Sorry, spmarshall is completely right.

Sure because in your world you'd have everyone walk around several city blocks in bad weather to access the system or even have to hop on a bus when it could've been at their doorstep. You expect the whole length of DRL from Danforth to TCP/Overlea to be served by a single station? Yikes! See why I was against this wasteful aboration of taxpayers' money when we still do without reliable/fast connections along Queen, Eglinton and in the far corners of the city?

The way York U, Jane & Finch, Weston & Finch (if the Emery project gets built), Rexdale, Humber College, Woodbine, and the airport all line up in a row so auspiciously is very tempting for fantasy map purposes...other options I've seen just aren't as aesthetically pleasing.

Well hoorah for fantasy! Now let realities like surface/elevation routing, route termination, speed, moderate spacing at 0.5 kms, access to other transit services (Blue 22, GO, MT, BRT, Eglinton subway) and the nodes of the 27 take over. Aesthetics be damned!

Just wanted to point out that the Weston Sub corridor is mega-wide.

Not through Weston. Even if it was, there is no major nodes close-by to support the creation of a DRL along it. GO is GOod enough!

The subway ride would still be quicker than the current ride to Islington/Kipling and then switching over to a MCC bus.

So true. I don't what Khatru's smoking if he thinks an hour-long subway ride (which anyone riding the full-length of BD almost endures already) is inconceivable or more inconvenient than a. bus to minor hub e.g. Erin Mills Mall b. transfer to Sq1 c. transfer to Islington-bound bus d. bumper-bumper never ending legionaire's voyage of doom and trepadation e. not even entrance to the station, just the door f. flights of stairs g. finding your fare h. just missing the train as you scurry down the stairs i. crying "Holy Shit! Now I'm late for work.". The sensible option if 905ers are bound for the subway anyway, take it to them or least to their border.

I did not extend the subway to Steeles because I think Finch is a better place for different modes of transit to connect; the ALRT and Finch LRT connect there too.

Making it an entirely separate subway wouldn't hurt since we've come so accustomed to Finch as the end. That way it could run up to Gamble/Canyon Hill/19th. If it were YUS heading into YR I think people would be reluctant to pay the additional fare.

Are we looking at the same map?

No, no I wasn't referring to your map. The current order of naming Spadina stations has each major artery except Wilson attributed with the "West" to distinguish them from their Yonge counterparts. Downsview ruins the sequence. If the new York U extension leads to the new Sheppard/Chesswood Stn to be named Sheppard West, it may confuse people into thinking this is the true alignment of the corridor and where to get off for say a future Sheppard West extension.

Why on earth should Malvern get a subway before STC?

Well guess what, my way we'd have both served by the same line! It's not rocket science you know.

On a tangentially related note, have you guys heard about the movement to rename Dupont station Casa Loma?

Dear God no! Plus for the TTC to blantantly include all those important buildings nearby on the map as if to say they're directly linked to the station is the biggest crock of all. Casa Loma is nowhere near the stop, although the line does run right under the castle. Think they should've put a stop there to stop confusing bewildered tourists?

Uxbridge has lses than 20,000 people, so that automatically requires them to have rapid transit...it's places that have over 100,000 people that are excluded.

Are there 100,000 people in East Gillumbury (sp?)? I sure half the GO stns. see nowhere near at capacity volumes of traffic and thinking of places northeast of the city, only Uxbridge comes to mind.

If a GO line had stops spaced 1-2km for a long distance, the line would be so slow that no one would choose it over their car.

Those spacings I mentioned and I think of alot more (Ajax-Whitby-Oshawa, Clarkson-Oakville) aren't that far apart making my spacing not that outrageous.

Well, that was fleeting.

Dummy, local and regional transit are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES. They may exist in the same city but they don't co-exist beyond Union and even there only during rush hour.

It may never enter Mississauga. Even if it does, it may never go to MCC.

Wow, kudos on your new-found optimism. It's amusing how you hard-press subways to suburban sprawl 'town centres' at all costs even at the expense of more pressing, warranted lines priorities and issues (new vehicles anyone?) yet you suddenly throw in the towel for the only place in Sauga that could support a subway.

There's precedent for not going on to obvious locations further out - Spadina didn't go to York U, Yonge didn't go to Steeles, Danforth didn't go to STC, etc.

Now what the **** is he babbling about :rolleyes !?!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

OMFG! When the heck did construction begin?!

Around 1994? Maybe there's some experts lurking in Wikipedia that you could consult to find out for sure.

If only it wasn't just for the AM/PM rush crowd

Who says it has to just be a rush hour route? I find it strange that you're capable of dreaming up mostly absurd subway lines that would take generations to complete but your vision of what GO could become, with or without TTC/GTA integration, is completely static.

If one thinks of Dixon/Martin Grove Stn. as interlined one branch heads up to Albion/Kipling, the other to Pearson

Under your plan, someone at Albion & Kipling would have to take 24km of subway to get to York U...if I built it, they'd be able to get to York using about 8km of subway - if they went 24km, they'd just reach Agincourt Mall. They'd also be able to get downtown in 3km less distance and one fewer transfer. They'd be able to get to the airport without transferring.

Why ridiculous, because it's the most extensive proposal to date?

The map posted below yours on page 5 was just as extensive as yours...last year or so, it was laughed at by everyone who saw it, but its outer portions seem almost rational compared to your map.

For a real stretch, check out this "idea":
p083.ezboard.com/ftoronto...1996.topic

I thought Renforth/Eglinton was crucial to the MT busway and was even going to get a branch of the Pearson People Mover.

And the busway is crucial to...??? The people mover can run up to the Georgetown line where it'll connect with some form of rail that'll go straight downtown, and then maybe continue on to Woodbine. It's the Eglinton line south of Eglinton that's highly dubious.

The fantasy map there as well as mentioned on Transit Toronto and other blogs would have Eglinton route up to Dixon

No, it would not run down Renforth. If anything, it would run west to Renforth and then up to Dixon. It may never have even been extended west of Black Creek...

One option would be to run it west to ~Scarlett, then north to Weston, then west straight along Dixon to the airport. You'd lose most of the easy ROW available, but the plus side is you'd mess up the busway :evil

think of CP as a venue should the Olympics ever come to Toronto a mere 3 subway stations away from the airport

Hey, York Region might one day win the Commonwealth Games, so we need a Bayview subway right up to Mulock to handle all the team handball players and modern pentathlon spectators.

Not through Weston. Even if it was, there is no major nodes close-by to support the creation of a DRL along it. GO is GOod enough!

It's wide everywhere except for a tiny length around Church St. So what? Buy 20 houses and tear em down if need be - 20 houses should not hold the city hostage. I bet you could buy their backyards and get enough room that way. But, again, a DRL does not necessarily have to follow the corridor exactly...it can follow roads or just go anywhere diagonally. Maybe there's only a few tower clusters along the way but the majority of riders will arrive by bus, just like every other suburban subway line. And if GO is good enough, why is it ignored in your plans...why do subways run out everywhere in an exorbitantly expensive attempt to replace them?

As for Rouge Hill, GO saw fit to put a stop there, numerous townhouses springing up, numerous bus routes serve the area, it just seemed like a good place to end mass transit. Routing along Lawson instead of Lawrence was done to a. hit UTSC/Highland Creek b. east of Manse there's nothing on Lawrence anyway.

The GO line exists to serve Durham and one of Rouge Hill's main purposes is to serve Pickeringites who live closer to it than Pickering station. Numerous townhouses? Who cares! It may be honourable to think about the little guy, but the little guy doesn't matter to rapid transit. I don't think there's a single building over 2 storeys east of Meadowvale, just scattered houses and lots of parkland. Rouge Hill already has a GO train that can get people to Mississauga in 45 minutes...why do they need a subway that can't possibly go the same distance in less than an hour?

If I didn't route Queen upto and along Kingston Rd. it would follow VP to the BD station. Bingham, Gerrard, new south entrance reaching Shopper's World, that would be the alternative.

Well, that's a very good alternative...serves Queen, check, relieves the YUS loop, check. Your plan completely ignores YUS overcrowding but this Queen connection would do wonders.

However I still think the routing benefits residents of Scarborough Junction and Cliffside better than the insipid bus routings of southeast Scarborough today.

Bus routing can be changed...it will be changed if the Queen line ran up VP. Kingston may get a streetcar, which would also change things up. The relief that connecting with VP would provide far, far, far outweighs bringing the subway a bit closer to a few thousand people.

As for the west, there is absolutely zippo on the Queensway to warrant a subway.

A Lakeshore-ish alignment is not terrible, but I have issues with a subway that runs so close to the lake for so long, through some areas that won't see intensification. Food for thought: the Queen line could be the one that goes to Square One, being on an eerily straight line to downtown, and all...a perfectly straight subway line from MCC to the Beaches would be 30km, hitting Sherway and the condos around Palace Pier. Half the people along Lakeshore would still be minutes away from the Queen line.

"Hurontario LRT should run the full length from Port Credit to Brampton GO. If the subway goes to MCC it'd run concurrently with LRT between Dundas and Burnhamthrope." -for reference see page 8.

2km of piggybacking does not at all equate to doady's plan to build an ~18km subway. Nice try.

You expect the whole length of DRL from Danforth to TCP/Overlea to be served by a single station?

Pape station is already north of Danforth. A Cosburn stop would mean almost everyone is within 4 blocks of the subway. But 4 blocks isn't good enough for you, so whatever...as long as people have "access" it doesn't matter how long their trips take, right?

Well hoorah for fantasy! Now let realities like surface/elevation routing, route termination, speed, moderate spacing at 0.5 kms, access to other transit services (Blue 22, GO, MT, BRT, Eglinton subway) and the nodes of the 27 take over.

Routing? It would hit every significant place between Downsview and the airport north of the 401. It would terminate at the airport. It'd connect with all of those other routes you mentioned. 500 metre spacing? Suburban bus routes usually average 300+ metre spacing...you're proposing 4 stops per concession? The best part is that it'd serve the whole area in a straight line requiring no transfers. Heck, it doesn't even need to be subway technology...it could be any kind of rail, perhaps coordinated with Peel Region stuff, VIVA, etc. I'm fine with ending Sheppard at Downsview, or maybe York, if a light rail network sprouts out from there...in 100 years maybe the subway can be extended if it needs to be.

The sensible option if 905ers are bound for the subway anyway, take it to them or least to their border.

Why can't this person near Erin Mills slash time off their commute by taking a GO train that's apparently "good enough" for dense areas within the 416?

Making it an entirely separate subway wouldn't hurt since we've come so accustomed to Finch as the end.

No, it must be a Yonge line extension north of Finch...nothing else is even remotely acceptable. What we're accustomed to is arriving at Finch every day and sighing "why doesn't the train go north of here?"

Well guess what, my way we'd have both served by the same line! It's not rocket science you know.

I wasn't talking about your map. And it would take a rocket scientist to figure out how to fill two subways every day in Malvern.

Those spacings I mentioned and I think of alot more (Ajax-Whitby-Oshawa, Clarkson-Oakville) aren't that far apart making my spacing not that outrageous.

Ajax to Whitby is 7km...you mentioned subway-like spacings of less than 2km. If I'm coming in from Oshawa or Newmarket, I certainly don't want the train stopping every 2 minutes, or I'll just get in my car.

Dummy, local and regional transit are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES. They may exist in the same city but they don't co-exist beyond Union and even there only during rush hour.

And it's going to stay this way for the next century? There will never be a GTA transit body and no form of fare or network integration? Maybe the TTC will totally take over GO's train routes...why shouldn't we let the province improve the lines as much and as fast as possible before some degree of integration occurs? At the very least, the TTC cannot plan for the future without considering what GO will do. Your subway plan (or elevated ICTS plan, whatever) will take decades to build even if billions were available now. Meanwhile, every GO line could see all-day service before a single new km of TTC rapid transit is built.

Wow, kudos on your new-found optimism. It's amusing how you hard-press subways to suburban sprawl 'town centres' at all costs even at the expense of more pressing, warranted lines priorities and issues (new vehicles anyone?) yet you suddenly throw in the towel for the only place in Sauga that could support a subway.

Theoretically, in the long-term, the subway could and maybe should go to Square One, but if a Hurontario LRT, a few seriously beefed up GO lines, and, yes, maybe even a busway, all combine to reduce "demand" for a subway to a trickle, why should this city spend billions of dollars on it when it possibly means delaying routes like Don Mills or Queen? Or if it means delaying bus replacement (something you're suddenly concerned with). The whole Dundas corridor may see massive growth, which would encourage a subway, but MCC may stall and see shrinking populations and a loss of jobs in 20 years, which would mean a subway would be useless...it's just too unpredictable right now.

Now what the **** is he babbling about

You know exactly what I'm talking about...you're just causing a ruckus. When they extended the Spadina line north of Wilson, it stopped at Downsview, inexplicably not continuing on to York, the only thing north of Wilson. Kipling to Square One would be 10 or 11 new kilometres of subway...it's not exactly a sure thing.

 

[prometheus the supremo]

doady, i made a google earth overlay of your map.

the KMZ file can only be used with google earth. hope you don't mind. i tried to make the background transparent..

www.yousendit.com/downloa...h5TA%3D%3D


looks pretty cool.