[Second_in_pie]

That's true, but it doesn't mean it's not impressive!

To think that in almost 10 years our transit map will be like that...

To be realistic... (based on that map)

The B/D line should be extended to Sherway Gardens, but in the east I think the only possible extension is to STC, which is even iffy itself. Either extend the SRT up McCowan, or make a McCowan LRT, which could be run either by YRT, the TTC or both.

The Eglinton line should be Subway, but for a start it should terminate at the airport and Kennedy station. It'd be a while for expansion in the east, but expansion in the west could come sooner.

Sheppard Subway should be converted to LRT, but it could be extended to Downsview station.

Finch should be some sort of Rapid Transit route, whether it's Subway, RT or grade separated LRT. It would only make sense for it to terminate at the Airport.

The DRL should only extend up to Eglinton on the East side, terminating at Don Mills & Eglinton Station. On the west side, there should be a big loop station when Queen turns into The Queensway, and should be the new terminus of the King Streetcar. It would then go up Roncasvales to Dundas West station, where it would terminate (Hopefully this is what is actually going to happen ) The Jane and Don Mills sections should just be the TC LRT.

The Queen Streetcar should be converted totally to LRT and run all the way down the Queensway, creating a full Queen line and a full Waterfront West line (emphasis on this one because it would be very useful)

I say for the YUS expansions, let the Spadina extension run up to Vaughn Corporate Centre, but the Yonge line should terminate at Steeles. With the extension, the entire line should be extended up to Richmond Hill Centre, but should then go to YRT once Viva Blue finishes as subway (this is a fantasy map thread, right?) Let the Steeles platform be big enough to accommodate for 2 separate stations within it, so there can be a transfer in the middle between the to Subways on the same platform.

Tell me the flaws in that plan. I'm trying for it to actually be plausible in the next little while

 

[Hipster Duck]

That map is like the anti-christ of good transit planning.

Where do I begin? The elevating of streetcars to the level of subways; a seamless line along Sheppard that makes no mention of modes or transfers; a DRL that is basically an extended version of the King 504 that probably would take 4 hours end-to-end; a subway up Markham road to Steeles.

 

[yllianos]

I've re-invented my map with fantasy lines; I call it the "SCREW the LRTs, we want SUBWAYS" map.

I'm taking suggestions what to add to the map out of randomness and excessiveness. Who says a map can be overcrowded with subway lines?

 

[Fischbob]

Here's a fantasy map I cooked up recently. It's somewhat of a synthesis of a lot of the ideas kicking around here on the forum, along with a few ideas of my own. It includes subway, light rail, regional express, and BRT lines.

click here

 

[Second_in_pie]

And Here comes the criticism...

Dundas-Gerrard subway has got to be the top of the list. It really doesn't make much sense at all.

Interesting what you did with the DRL, making it run up Dufferin to Eglinton, but across to Dundas West is really the better option, mainly due to the fact that Dundas West is a major transit hub, with the Streetcars and GO station right there. Dufferin should just be LRT and it'll be fine.

Eglinton-Scarborough-Shepphard is another one that doesn't make sense to me. What is the point of joining Eglinton to Sheppard and why would it make service any better?

Interesting putting Viva Green to STC, but again, I think Kennedy and McCowan LRTs would do well to serve that.

There. I'm not adding anything, just criticizing what's there

 

[Amphibius]

^^ I agree with your critiques. Now, you said you wanted some feedback regarding your own proposal...

That's true, but it doesn't mean it's not impressive!

To think that in almost 10 years our transit map will be like that...

To be realistic... (based on that map)

The B/D line should be extended to Sherway Gardens, but in the east I think the only possible extension is to STC, which is even iffy itself. Either extend the SRT up McCowan, or make a McCowan LRT, which could be run either by YRT, the TTC or both.

Bloor-Danforth should be extended on both ends and terminate at major transit hubs. For a theoretical Phase 1, I'd recommend stopping at Scarbrough Centre and Sherway Gardens respectively. Long-term however B-D should be extended into Square One as nearly one-quarter of all B-D daily usage originates from Mississauga and Brampton commuters.

To the east is more controversal. I think a 5-station extension to Malvern Town Centre is a plausible future endeavour we could undertake that would transform commuting patterns through NE Scarborough, Markham/Cornell and possibly even Pickering riders. McCowan BRT doesn't sound bad either.

The Eglinton line should be Subway, but for a start it should terminate at the airport and Kennedy station. It'd be a while for expansion in the east, but expansion in the west could come sooner.

Since the tunneled middle-portion's destined to accomodate HRT down the road already, I'd recommend grade-separated ROW for the outer sections to Pearson and to Kennedy. To cut back on expenses we reduce the total number of stations to just seven in each direction: WEST:- Pearson, Highway 27/Dixon, Martin Grove/Westway, Kipling, Islington, Royal York, Scarlett; EAST:- St Dennis Dr, Bermondsey, Eglinton Sq, Warden, Birchmount, Kennedy/Eglinton, Midland (juxtaposed between the GO Stn and Midland Ave).

Sheppard Subway should be converted to LRT, but it could be extended to Downsview station.

The 84 bus is a poor preforming route in contrast to other east-west corridors in the city. While I agree that the subway should be demoted (gasp!), running it adjacent to the Yonge Subway then continuing it along Finch as composite of the Finch West LRT would enable a trasnfer-free crosstown commute for riders north of the 401.

Finch should be some sort of Rapid Transit route, whether it's Subway, RT or grade separated LRT. It would only make sense for it to terminate at the Airport.

I think not utilizing the Finch Hydro Corridor for express crosstown trips is a mistake on Metrolinx/TTC's part. If you think about it, several trip generators/transit hubs that link up to Finch proper also connect directly to the FHC as well (Seneca College, Old Cummer GO, Finch GO Terminal, Finch West subway, Jane-Finch [Yorkgate Mall], Humber Regional Hosp.). And regarding connecting Finch to the airport, FHC also runs on a diagonal from Weston/Finch straight down to Martin Grove/Dixon, passing by Etobicoke North GO Stn en route, so a seamless connection's right there.

The DRL should only extend up to Eglinton on the East side, terminating at Don Mills & Eglinton Station. On the west side, there should be a big loop station when Queen turns into The Queensway, and should be the new terminus of the King Streetcar. It would then go up Roncasvales to Dundas West station, where it would terminate (Hopefully this is what is actually going to happen ) The Jane and Don Mills sections should just be the TC LRT.

Jane should remain a bus service, IMO. 35 bus riders will have so many alternative rapid transit services to take advantage of down the road that this just seems like a waste of scarce funds.

The Queen Streetcar should be converted totally to LRT and run all the way down the Queensway, creating a full Queen line and a full Waterfront West line (emphasis on this one because it would be very useful)

Queen should be incorporated as part of the E-W alignment of the DRL Subway Line through the central downtown area. This area requires greater than streetcar service to thrive long term.

I say for the YUS expansions, let the Spadina extension run up to Vaughn Corporate Centre, but the Yonge line should terminate at Steeles. With the extension, the entire line should be extended up to Richmond Hill Centre, but should then go to YRT once Viva Blue finishes as subway (this is a fantasy map thread, right?) Let the Steeles platform be big enough to accommodate for 2 separate stations within it, so there can be a transfer in the middle between the to Subways on the same platform.

Yonge north of Steeles can continue on as a LRT line. I'd extend it way past Langstaff/RHC though, preferrably to 19th/Gamble where the urban fringe starts tapering off.

Tell me the flaws in that plan. I'm trying for it to actually be plausible in the next little while

Well, I hope that helped. Be sure to tell me if anything I've said is flawed while we're at it.

 

[Fischbob]

And Here comes the criticism...

Dundas-Gerrard subway has got to be the top of the list. It really doesn't make much sense at all.

Interesting what you did with the DRL, making it run up Dufferin to Eglinton, but across to Dundas West is really the better option, mainly due to the fact that Dundas West is a major transit hub, with the Streetcars and GO station right there. Dufferin should just be LRT and it'll be fine.

Eglinton-Scarborough-Shepphard is another one that doesn't make sense to me. What is the point of joining Eglinton to Sheppard and why would it make service any better?

Interesting putting Viva Green to STC, but again, I think Kennedy and McCowan LRTs would do well to serve that.

There. I'm not adding anything, just criticizing what's there

Fair enough

My reasoning for a Dundas-Gerrard subway was twofold: first, it would act as a second DRL (perhaps you'd be right if you were to tell me "that's overkill"), and second, it would provide another higher order east-west option south of Bloor, taking pressure off of the 501, 505, 506, etc. streetcars in downtown Toronto. It would also connect with Dundas West station, allowing the DRL to run up Dufferin. I suppose the western portion of the Dundas-Gerrard's route could conceivably be replaced with the DRL, although if that's the case it would still be worthwhile to have it somehow continue to Eglinton. Any suggestions for such a routing?

The Eglinton-Scarborough-Sheppard routing resulted from the combination of a few elements I wanted to include: namely a buildout of the Sheppard East subway to STC, a full buildout of the Eglinton subway, and a subway extension from Kennedy to STC. It made sense to have the Sheppard East simply continue as part of whatever line that got extended from Kennedy to STC instead of having two lines terminate there. To be honest, I think I combined it with the Eglinton to keep Sheppard and Bloor their original line colours, although it would probably make more sense to do a Sheppard-Scarborough-Danforth-Bloor since it more directly connects Scarborough with the downtown.

Kennedy/McCowan LRTs sound fine to me, so long as the north-south connectivity on that corridor is preserved. Same with Dufferin

 

[Second_in_pie]

Bloor-Danforth should be extended on both ends and terminate at major transit hubs. For a theoretical Phase 1, I'd recommend stopping at Scarbrough Centre and Sherway Gardens respectively. Long-term however B-D should be extended into Square One as nearly one-quarter of all B-D daily usage originates from Mississauga and Brampton commuters.

Now what I'd do there is extend the Bloor/Danforth to Sherway Gardens and terminate there, starting a new Mississauga Subway on Dundas. If Mississauga ever DOES become a city, I see a possibility of swallowing up Oakville. The subway could also extend up there when Oakville continues to grow (It's got a fair bit of room to do that too.) Maybe it could even eventually be extended into Burlington and connect to Hamilton's King/Main Line.

Since the tunneled middle-portion's destined to accomodate HRT down the road already, I'd recommend grade-separated ROW for the outer sections to Pearson and to Kennedy. To cut back on expenses we reduce the total number of stations to just seven in each direction: WEST:- Pearson, Highway 27/Dixon, Martin Grove/Westway, Kipling, Islington, Royal York, Scarlett; EAST:- St Dennis Dr, Bermondsey, Eglinton Sq, Warden, Birchmount, Kennedy/Eglinton, Midland (juxtaposed between the GO Stn and Midland Ave).

I think the best way to do subway is to do it with the same stop spacing as on the B/D line. The B/D stop spacing is just perfect, and Eglinton should follow that example. The biggest thing I'm hoping for from the election is someone that won't be afraid to build new subway who will establish Eglinton as a Subway-to-be and will start construction on it.

The 84 bus is a poor preforming route in contrast to other east-west corridors in the city. While I agree that the subway should be demoted (gasp!), running it adjacent to the Yonge Subway then continuing it along Finch as composite of the Finch West LRT would enable a trasnfer-free crosstown commute for riders north of the 401.

I just realized about 2 weeks ago the beauty of a Downsview to Don Mills Sheppard subway. Don Mills will soon become a very big transit hub, with the Don Mills LRT, Sheppard LRT and soon to be all day service Viva Green. Sheppard will be able to provide transit to people in NYCC, which is soon to become a very big part of the city, probably the biggest after the Downtown Core. A subway will be an important part in linking all the other routes to North York.

Jane should remain a bus service, IMO. 35 bus riders will have so many alternative rapid transit services to take advantage of down the road that this just seems like a waste of scarce funds.

I see why people think this, but I think that on the southern part, a LRT is rather important. Up closer to Steeles, people on Jane could take the subway, but around south of Wilson, I think they'd just rather take an LRT down to Bloor (or Eglinton, for that matter!) I know I would, but that's really most up to debate for me.

Queen should be incorporated as part of the E-W alignment of the DRL Subway Line through the central downtown area. This area requires greater than streetcar service to thrive long term.

I've always thought this, but I think that it would be more efficient to run the DRL down to Union Station. There from Front St, it could quickly service Exhibition, Liberty Village, Lower Donlands and CityPlace (taken in no apparent order ) Queen does need a big reworking though, and I think that rebuilding the tracks so they're more like an LRT (prehaps being in ROW on either side of the street would be the best) but to allow for looser car traffic control than Transit City, so the businesses along Queen can still rely on car-based customers. I think one of the coolest DRL stations will be when Queen, Queensway and King St intersect. There should be a (huge) station where the King Streetcar can short turn, and where passengers can switch from the Queen and King Streetcars and Waterfront West LRT which will be running from Union Station to Long Branch. If they're gonna rip up Queen for that, they should make it to use the new LRTs (that don't have to use loops to turn around) so they can eventually phase the old loops out of the system.

Yonge north of Steeles can continue on as a LRT line. I'd extend it way past Langstaff/RHC though, preferrably to 19th/Gamble where the urban fringe starts tapering off.

I think that in about 20 years, it will be possible for both Viva Blue and Viva Purple to be Subways. Markham Town Centre will be developed and will continue to develop, and Vaughn City Centre will probably be attracting a lot of businesses and with that large office buildings. Richmond Hill will densify a lot with new Condos and high rise residential buildings, and Newmarket will continue to build up.

There's my feedback to your feedback. Here I made a quick map of some higher order transit projects in the "Standard" GTA that I think are important to get completed (WARNING: Includes GO projects.)

 

[nfitz]

Maybe it could even eventually be extended into Burlington and connect to Hamilton's King/Main Line.

... and heck then onto Windsor, Calgary, and Vancouver ... and then Tokyo ...

 

[smuncky]

... and heck then onto Windsor, Calgary, and Vancouver ... and then Tokyo ...

if it's going to windsor, could we have every other train go to detroit on a stub line?

 

[nfitz]

if it's going to windsor, could we have every other train go to detroit on a stub line?

Sure can ... they can stop in Detroit before going to Melbourne.

 

[CDL.TO]

Sure can ... they can stop in Detroit before going to Melbourne.

Bring it back around via Madrid and Halifax and we've got a loop line.

 

[drum118]

Bring it back around via Madrid and Halifax and we've got a loop line.

We can even have a branch line to Calgary, Vancouver and drop back down to it on the west coast.

Then a branch to England.

 

[Intrepidtron]

Here's a fantasy map I put together that I'm sure you would all love to tear apart.

http://theintrepid.blogspot.com/2009/04/ttc-dream-map.html

 

[Second_in_pie]

We can even have a branch line to Calgary, Vancouver and drop back down to it on the west coast.

Then a branch to England.

But then it begs the question: Will it be LRT, Subway or Express Rail?!