[sixrings]

I understand this, and perhaps in an ideal world we could have all of it- subway, RER, etc. But, as others have pointed out, the SSE is not a thoroughly well thought out plan that is going to be ludicrously expensive. Not to say we shouldn’t build it, but it has its fair share of problems. If you really want to draw equivalencies then I guess you can- maybe we should’ve built a GO spur off of the Stouffville line instead.

However….

I agree with DirectionNorth that there’s little evidence Mississauga would run the service necessary to feed into a Line 2 extension. Even if we did, if we rely upon feeder service why’s the difference between Line 2 and an electrified Milton at that point? The only way I see we could save costs on Line 2 to Square one is using the rail corridor, which based on prior knowledge they either won’t do because “it’s a subway” or because you would be occupying 2 tracks worth of space in the CP ROW that should preferably be used for Milton service.

I think this premise of extending Line 2 to Mississauga fails mostly because there are better options available. What were the better options for STC?

The SRT literally used the same track area as the Scarborough GO route which has a stop at Kennedy, Sheppard and soon Finch. If it worked all those years for the SRT why couldn’t it work for a subway or LRT from square one to Kipling in Mississaugas

A go train branch to STC was an option but people complained about the cost to ride the go train. Nothing has changed since then. There’s a bunch of promising that there will be fare intervention. When exactly? No one knows and I tend to think it’s an election promise more than reality. a branch of the go line to STC would have also been significantly faster than the subway extension. People didn’t care. It was subways subways subways.

Scarborough framed it as an attack on the suburbs by bike riding urban pinkos and that they deserved to be treated equal. The difference here is not a pity party but more of Scarborough a suburb can get it, Vaughan can get it, Richmond hill can get it then logically surely Mississauga can get one too.

 

[toaster29]

Logically, Mississauga would have been the first suburb to get the extension based on population and density. Vaughan got a subway in the middle of nowhere, and Mr. Sorbara's friends pocketed billion with this land value (allegedly). It should have never happened. Line 1 is over capacity - Line 2 is not. Anyway, I don't think any of these are a good idea, Toronto has dense neighborhoods without rapid transit that need to be served by TTC. But if I had to choose 1, Mississauga would be the one.

 

[Northern Light]

...... But the TTC has always run very good feeder service, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so after SSE opens. Connecting bus service is where the ridership comes from.

I do not believe that Mississauga is willing to fund MiWay to do the same thing. As so many car advocates (rightfully) point out, most trips in Mississauga aren't to Downtown, but within Mississauga. The trips to downtown can be taken on GO at a much faster speed.

I want to juxtapose this (I got to use this word on UT twice today!) ...with this:

........ Vaughan got a subway in the middle of nowhere, and Mr. Sorbara's friends pocketed billion with this land value (allegedly). It should have never happened.....

Merely to point out how anemic YRT service is in supporting that extension.

****

I've discussed my views in the past on the merits of this extension, I won't rehash those...........but will say..........

Henceforth, the province should require any local municipality seeking a subway to show a supportive feeder service plan to gain approval, to which they are legally bound for 10 years from the opening of the line. ie. During those 10 years they can offer more service, but not less than that agreed to at time of construction approval.

The agreement would include a base hours of service per year to ensure that service improvements on select routes aren't achieved by bleeding others dry, but instead represent
net new service. Want a subway, each station must be supported by no fewer than 2 routes which have 10 minute or greater frequency 6am-midnight, 7 days per week, and operate ever 20M or better 24/7. Every bus route which feeds a station must offer 10M or better service in rush hours, and full span of service at every 15M or better 6am-midnight, 7 days per week.

No supporting service, no subway.

This should apply to all extensions of the network.

 

[sixrings]

I want to juxtapose this (I got to use this word on UT twice today!) ...with this:



Merely to point out how anemic YRT service is in supporting that extension.

****

I've discussed my views in the past on the merits of this extension, I won't rehash those...........but will say..........

Henceforth, the province should require any local municipality seeking a subway to show a supportive feeder service plan to gain approval, to which they are legally bound for 10 years from the opening of the line. ie. During those 10 years they can offer more service, but not less than that agreed to at time of construction approval.

The agreement would include a base hours of service per year to ensure that service improvements on select routes aren't achieved by bleeding others dry, but instead represent
net new service. Want a subway, each station must be supported by no fewer than 2 routes which have 10 minute or greater frequency 6am-midnight, 7 days per week, and operate ever 20M or better 24/7. Every bus route which feeds a station must offer 10M or better service in rush hours, and full span of service at every 15M or better 6am-midnight, 7 days per week.

No supporting service, no subway.

This should apply to all extensions of the network.

Then you would just have one station at Dixie and dundas supported by a dundas brt and a more frequent Dixie bus.

And one stop at square one which is a hub to the entire Mississauga transit network and a lrt.

Look at how quickly I solved those two requirements.

 

[Deadpool X]

Barring trying to convince ourselves of the viability of a subway based on density (because this is usually irrelevant here), if Mississauga wanted Line 2 it would have it already. The city has gone through decades with free flowing coffers and contemplated it before- they chose against it. York Region has 2 subways, and will have at least 1 more (OL eventually), 2 RER lines, and 1-3 conventional GO lines in the OP (RH, Bolton, Havelock). If Mississauga can present even just a line on an OP map for where a subway would go, I’d love to see it.

Interestingly, VMC had practically nothing when it got subway extension while MCC has much more density already, yet no plans for near future - neither GO, nor subway. LRT would be drop in a bucket.

 

[Rainforest]

I want to juxtapose this (I got to use this word on UT twice today!) ...with this:



Merely to point out how anemic YRT service is in supporting that extension.

****

I've discussed my views in the past on the merits of this extension, I won't rehash those...........but will say..........

Henceforth, the province should require any local municipality seeking a subway to show a supportive feeder service plan to gain approval, to which they are legally bound for 10 years from the opening of the line. ie. During those 10 years they can offer more service, but not less than that agreed to at time of construction approval.

The agreement would include a base hours of service per year to ensure that service improvements on select routes aren't achieved by bleeding others dry, but instead represent
net new service. Want a subway, each station must be supported by no fewer than 2 routes which have 10 minute or greater frequency 6am-midnight, 7 days per week, and operate ever 20M or better 24/7. Every bus route which feeds a station must offer 10M or better service in rush hours, and full span of service at every 15M or better 6am-midnight, 7 days per week.

No supporting service, no subway.

This should apply to all extensions of the network.

Sounds interesting, but might result in very big gaps between the stations. Say for Yonge North, the RHC station would still qualify after a small increase in the VIVA frequencies. No other station between Steeles and RHC would come anywhere close to qualifying. And then we would get a long, costly, mostly tunneled line that provides no local service at all.

On the other hand, all 3 future SSE stations would qualify easily, even though the expected total ridership for SSE isn't greater than for Yonge North.

Ironically, the Moss Park and East Harbor stations of Ontario Line would not qualify.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Logically, Mississauga would have been the first suburb to get the extension based on population and density. Vaughan got a subway in the middle of nowhere, and Mr. Sorbara's friends pocketed billion with this land value (allegedly). It should have never happened. Line 1 is over capacity - Line 2 is not. Anyway, I don't think any of these are a good idea, Toronto has dense neighborhoods without rapid transit that need to be served by TTC. But if I had to choose 1, Mississauga would be the one.

The problem with Line 2 is that for people who want to go to downtown Toronto, they have to transfer at St. George Station or Yonge Station to Line 1. (Ditto with Line 5, having to transfer at Cedarvale Station or Eglinton Station to Line 1.) This is why we have the Bloor-Yonge platforms expansion project.

Using the GO trains would be better, if they could increase the headways. The other option is the Ontario Line, which would bypass Line 1 to get downtown.

 

[Rainforest]

This is what I don’t understand as well. Somehow we did everything and anything to justify the Scarborough subway extension but at the same time use the complete reverse logic to dismiss the a potential square one project. At least Scarborough town had a RT to Kennedy. The best Mississauga is getting is a whopping BRT (not lrt!!!) on dundas.

Perhaps one reason is that Scarberians are accustomed to the TTC single fare and integrated network, and therefore a greater percentage of residents take TTC to jobs in / near Toronto downtown. While Mississauga residents are less likely to work in Toronto downtown, and if they do, less likely to take Mississauga Transit + TTC.

Therefore, the subway extension is a much more prominent topic in Scarborough than it is in Mississauga. Many MPPs and councilors from Scarborough pushed hard for the subway. In Mississauga, not many people (outside the transit fan community) care either way.

If Mississauga pushed as hard as Scarborough did, they would probably have at least one of the two by now; Line 2 West or Milton RER. Maybe both of them. It is not like Scarborough deserves the subway more, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[sixrings]

The problem with Line 2 is that for people who want to go to downtown Toronto, they have to transfer at St. George Station or Yonge Station to Line 1. (Ditto with Line 5, having to transfer at Cedarvale Station or Eglinton Station to Line 1.) This is why we have the Bloor-Yonge platforms expansion project.

Using the GO trains would be better, if they could increase the headways. The other option is the Ontario Line, which would bypass Line 1 to get downtown.

I understand what you’re saying but it doesn’t change the fact that STC is equally far away and they will have to transfer as well. Also we are building an Ontario line which I am guessing will have a western terminal on the Bloor line meaning those transferring would have three opportunities. The new station, St. George and Yonge.

 

[sixrings]

Perhaps one reason is that Scarberians are accustomed to the TTC single fare and integrated network, and therefore a greater percentage of residents take TTC to jobs in / near Toronto downtown. While Mississauga residents are less likely to work in Toronto downtown, and if they do, less likely to take Mississauga Transit + TTC.

Therefore, the subway extension is a much more prominent topic in Scarborough than it is in Mississauga. Many MPPs and councilors from Scarborough pushed hard for the subway. In Mississauga, not many people (outside the transit fan community) care either way.

If Mississauga pushed as hard as Scarborough did, they would probably have at least one of the two by now; Line 2 West or Milton RER. Maybe both of them. It is not like Scarborough deserves the subway more, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The stats showed that most of Scarborough used the ttc to get around Scarborough so I am not sure more Scarborough residents are working downtown than Mississauga residents. We would need some stats.

 

[Rainforest]

The stats showed that most of Scarborough used the ttc to get around Scarborough so I am not sure more Scarborough residents are working downtown than Mississauga residents. We would need some stats.

True. That's just my guess, but it seems reasonable. Otherwise why would they care to ask for the subway.

The number of "Scarborough residents working downtown" could be smaller than "Scarborough residents working in Scarborough", and yet greater than "Mississauga residents working downtown".

 

[sixrings]

True. That's just my guess, but it seems reasonable. Otherwise why would they care to ask for the subway.

The number of "Scarborough residents working downtown" could be smaller than "Scarborough residents working in Scarborough", and yet greater than "Mississauga residents working downtown".

Some people in Scarborough cares to ask for a subway for a variety of reasons. They felt slighted. They didn’t understand fully what a lrt is versus a street car. They were more concerned about their property values than actual transit.

The fact is we don’t know about Mississaugas numbers because we don’t have stats. Even without the stats though STC got their way.

I’m just extremely curious how a combination of little desire for office space near square one, a Milton line bursting at its seems, large scaled development far greater than anything at STC from dundas to square one is going to work out for the city if there’s little jobs in Mississauga and very little access to Toronto. Not everyone in Mississauga has a house with a WFH office. They are building 400 square foot condos here as well and they are selling out.

 

[Northern Light]

Sounds interesting, but might result in very big gaps between the stations. Say for Yonge North, the RHC station would still qualify after a small increase in the VIVA frequencies. No other station between Steeles and RHC would come anywhere close to qualifying. And then we would get a long, costly, mostly tunneled line that provides no local service at all.

On the other hand, all 3 future SSE stations would qualify easily, even though the expected total ridership for SSE isn't greater than for Yonge North.

Ironically, the Moss Park and East Harbor stations of Ontario Line would not qualify.

Moss Park would qualify on Queen, but Sherbourne drops below 10M service in many off-peak periods.

Obviously stations in the core have enormous walk-up potential which is different from most suburban stations. That said, I think forcing the TTC to improve service on Sherbourne to every 10M or better is perfectly reasonable.

East Harbour is an interesting case in that there is no 'there' right now. There will be a Broadview streetcar though the site, which I would hope will be scheduled every 10M or better. Currently there is no E-W route at East Harbour, but the TTC Service Plan does call for an Eastern Avenue service. Again, looking at the frequency of same would be fair game.

Again, in the case of Yonge North, my object isn't to cut stations, its to jack service levels. You shouldn't read it an idea to screen out stations, but instead a lever to force municipalities primarily in suburbia to step up service.

York Region should be delivering its long overdue Frequent Service Network; and a more ambitious version of same.

14th/John, 16th, 7, Major Mack should all be sporting 10M services, The residual service on Yonge should be no less frequent, and the same for the feeder service from Yonge further up.

I'm not advocating for cutting those stations, I'm advocating that York Region be made to pony up enough service to make the investment make some kind of sense.

 

[drum118]

I understand this, and perhaps in an ideal world we could have all of it- subway, RER, etc. But, as others have pointed out, the SSE is not a thoroughly well thought out plan that is going to be ludicrously expensive. Not to say we shouldn’t build it, but it has its fair share of problems. If you really want to draw equivalencies then I guess you can- maybe we should’ve built a GO spur off of the Stouffville line instead.

However….

I agree with DirectionNorth that there’s little evidence Mississauga would run the service necessary to feed into a Line 2 extension. Even if we did, if we rely upon feeder service why’s the difference between Line 2 and an electrified Milton at that point? The only way I see we could save costs on Line 2 to Square one is using the rail corridor, which based on prior knowledge they either won’t do because “it’s a subway” or because you would be occupying 2 tracks worth of space in the CP ROW that should preferably be used for Milton service.

I think this premise of extending Line 2 to Mississauga fails mostly because there are better options available. What were the better options for STC?

The option for the STC was the conversion of the SRT to an LRT as well the extension to Malvern by 2015 until the Pan Am games came along. ML didn't think the conversion would be done for the games that it was plan to start building the new yard and extension first and close the existing line after the games. The reopening of the full line was to be 2018 or early 2019. This allow the subway folks a foot in the door with Ford leading the way to where we are today.

Those who rode the SRT would only have to use the buses for 3 years compare to the current 7+ years on a shorter line.

The conversion of the SRT to LRT allow for future extension and branch lines which the SSE can only do by going north.

I have not supported the subway extension in to Mississauga nor will do as it will not service the need of the city, eat up funds to service the city as a whole with no ridership to support such an extension.

The rail corridor is dead since there been a plan for decades to add more tracks for GO Transit that has to be a backbone line for the region as well there are cheaper and better options to service MCC.

 

[drum118]

Some people in Scarborough cares to ask for a subway for a variety of reasons. They felt slighted. They didn’t understand fully what a lrt is versus a street car. They were more concerned about their property values than actual transit.

The fact is we don’t know about Mississaugas numbers because we don’t have stats. Even without the stats though STC got their way.

I’m just extremely curious how a combination of little desire for office space near square one, a Milton line bursting at its seems, large scaled development far greater than anything at STC from dundas to square one is going to work out for the city if there’s little jobs in Mississauga and very little access to Toronto. Not everyone in Mississauga has a house with a WFH office. They are building 400 square foot condos here as well and they are selling out.

The reason there less office space at MCC than one think there should is the simple fact of cheap surface parking space and land still waiting for development around the airport. The land in the flight path and around the airport is zone employment land only.

At the same time, Oxford still thinks the mall is the the employment land for the area to the point they are only looking at 2 11 story office buildings along City View when they should be taller..

151 City Centre was an office tower past its time and was having a hard time being fully lease as well others ones around it to the point its now the Exchange District. 201 will be gone by 2040 as well most of the ones off City Centre.

National Bank building is still waiting for the other haft to be built for it that was supposed to happen with a few years after the first section was built.

There are office space in Parkside Village and no idea if it fully lease at this time with M City having office spaces as well that still yet to come on line.

Various developer's have requested council to give them tax holidays to build office space with councils saying no at this time that I am aware of. All parking will have to be underground with less parling spots compared to the past.

STC has no airport or fight path to worry about.

Again the thinking Toronto core is the centre of the universe for employment is so old fashion thinking, considering a large number of the existing office towers are now becoming residential as well shifting away from the core.

Good urban planning these days must see everything in one location to reduce travel time compare to the past where z is in this corner well x and j are here with residential there.

End of the day, unless you rip up Mississauga 100% between Kipling and MCC and built the density needed to support a subway, a subway to MCC is a pipe dream at this time.