TossYourJacket
Senior Member
But even that is going to the terminus of a BRT line. So it could be worse, I guess. That said, if it could actually go to Pearson, it would be a lot better.
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drum118
Superstar
Council thinks small minds and only sees pockets of development with the rest remaining low density in Mississauga.
Right now, you got density being built around Sq One and development to happen on Hurontario from Eglinton to the Queensway along with the Hurontario/Dundas St area. You have density taking place at Erin Mills and Eglinton. The only area outside these location that could see density over the next 50 years is Dixie Mall and all of Dundas St east of Hurontario.
Not enough density for a $12B subway line from Kipling to MCC today or 50 years from now. Far cheaper building an bypass GO line to MCC than a subway.
Getting to other parts of Mississauga is more important than a subway line will every be.
The Liberals ran on an $2.2B Transit Plan in 2014 election platform to upgraded the Milton Line to 4 tracks with all day service as far as Meadowvale and it disappear after the election.
At some point, both CP and the province needs to be on the same page to have 4 tracks in CP corridor from Milton to Agincourt with the odd 5 track location. The Toronto West Diamond Grade Separation was built to have 4 tracks going over the Weston Sub.
Again, Oakville is like Mississauga where density is being built in pockets with Bronte Rd seeing midrise developments. Dundas is supposed to be an BRT line, but development for it is not there yet as well missing the boat in places.
T3G
Senior Member
I don't like this argument, because it pre-supposes that we have already built the necessary infrastructure to more dense places, so now we can play real life Cities Skyline and generate density where none presently exists.
This is not the case. Far from it. Our limited funds should be going to places which are already dense enough to support the highest order transit. When that is taken care of, then we can worry about playing God and generating new density elsewhere.
afransen
Senior Member
MCC and Hurontario corridor is intensifying heavily and going to reach very high density ultimately. Dundas is starting to density, the BRT will accelerate this. Really, though, Mississauga needs better regional connectivity provided by proper service on the Milton Line. Dundas BRT and Hurontario LRT will accomplish more or less as much as Line 2 extension for local connectivity.
sixrings
Senior Member
Oxford Properties Launches 'Canada's Largest Development in History' at SquareOne in Mississauga | UrbanToronto
Oxford Properties has announced a massive redevelopment of the underused lands around Square One Shopping Centre in Mississauga, with 18 million square feet of office, residential, and retail on its way, with the first phase launching shortly with partner The Daniels Corporation.
In Mississaugas city centre around square one There’s multiple 70 floor buildings being built within blocks of each other. And a whole bunch of 60s under construction and or proposed in the same area. Because the mall has a vested interest in this density there is always land available and almost no NIMBYs in site to vote against anything so the only thing slowing down proposals is if there is a market.
Sunnyside
Active Member
The issue is not that there isn’t density in Mississauga anywhere, it’s that the density is too far apart to justify subway as a mode. Ironically, I would consider a regional rail line an upgrade in the hierarchy of modes- more capacity, longer distance, faster, etc. A subway would have stops closer together by virtue of the service pattern. We could pursue supplementary actions to make a Line 2 extension work, but it would ironically require more effort than working on the GO line.
Barring trying to convince ourselves of the viability of a subway based on density (because this is usually irrelevant here), if Mississauga wanted Line 2 it would have it already. The city has gone through decades with free flowing coffers and contemplated it before- they chose against it. York Region has 2 subways, and will have at least 1 more (OL eventually), 2 RER lines, and 1-3 conventional GO lines in the OP (RH, Bolton, Havelock). If Mississauga can present even just a line on an OP map for where a subway would go, I’d love to see it.
I would personally rather see Milton and the 407 ‘LRT’ accelerated over a Line 2 extension. More bang for our buck imo with 2 better-than-subway lines bringing residents where they need to go.
Barring trying to convince ourselves of the viability of a subway based on density (because this is usually irrelevant here), if Mississauga wanted Line 2 it would have it already. The city has gone through decades with free flowing coffers and contemplated it before- they chose against it. York Region has 2 subways, and will have at least 1 more (OL eventually), 2 RER lines, and 1-3 conventional GO lines in the OP (RH, Bolton, Havelock). If Mississauga can present even just a line on an OP map for where a subway would go, I’d love to see it.
I would personally rather see Milton and the 407 ‘LRT’ accelerated over a Line 2 extension. More bang for our buck imo with 2 better-than-subway lines bringing residents where they need to go.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
And use of a Midtown corridor could spur in Mississauga to cover even more.
toaster29
Active Member
FYI, Union station to Square One is only a few more KM than Union Station to Scarborough Town Centre.
nfitz
Superstar
If you look at Line 2, the distance from St. George station to Sheppard East in Scarborough is 22.0 km. The distance from there to Kipling is only 11.5 km. If you extended Line 2 from Kipling to Square One, along the CP tracks, and then up the long-proposed spur to Square One, that would be be another 10.5 km - making St. George to Square one 22.0 km.
St. George would be the exact middle of a Square One to Sheppard East Line 2 alignment. Which always makes me puzzle the reactions of some I've seen about how crazy far Square One is.
Also, many seem to forget, that a lot of riders get off at each stop at peak, not just downtown. I used to ride the Danforth subway for 4 stops as part of my regular commute. The changeover was huge. Sure, some are in it for the long haul. Many aren't.
sixrings
Senior Member
This is what I don’t understand as well. Somehow we did everything and anything to justify the Scarborough subway extension but at the same time use the complete reverse logic to dismiss the a potential square one project. At least Scarborough town had a RT to Kennedy. The best Mississauga is getting is a whopping BRT (not lrt!!!) on dundas.
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just east of the creek
Active Member
Besides what Drum mentioned earlier about Mississauga City Council, and that can be hard to argue about, this proposal would seemingly require Provincial participation in the scope of the more recent work i.e. Yong North Extension, Ontario Line, Scarborough Extension and Crosstown. With the GO expansions in the works through Mississauga, the HM line in a building process, the western extension of Crosstown, I am just not seeing where any subway extension into Mississauga ranks any higher then a dozen other projects on the drawing boards, including BRT's.
sixrings
Senior Member
The Scarborough extension shouldn’t been rated as high as it was yet here we are.
You’re asking for logic where was that logic just a few years ago.
We went from a build it and the development will come on projects we wanted to no we can’t build it because there isn’t enough development on projects we didn’t want. Some consistency would be nice.
DirectionNorth
Active Member
Now we're going with the "Mississauga deserves a subway because Scarborough has one" argument? Seriously?
The "we deserve a subway" is what gave us the SSE bondoogle (yes, I believe that the Scarborough Subway's ridership does not justify its cost). But the TTC has always run very good feeder service, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so after SSE opens. Connecting bus service is where the ridership comes from.
I do not believe that Mississauga is willing to fund MiWay to do the same thing. As so many car advocates (rightfully) point out, most trips in Mississauga aren't to Downtown, but within Mississauga. The trips to downtown can be taken on GO at a much faster speed.
Which leaves the line for trips within Mississauga. The specific result might vary based on the alignment, but I doubt that any subway alignment will produce the ridership results needed for a $10 billion subway. 'Pockets of density' isn't enough for the cost of this subway, especially not while there are far more pressing needs elsewhere.
The "we deserve a subway" is what gave us the SSE bondoogle (yes, I believe that the Scarborough Subway's ridership does not justify its cost). But the TTC has always run very good feeder service, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so after SSE opens. Connecting bus service is where the ridership comes from.
I do not believe that Mississauga is willing to fund MiWay to do the same thing. As so many car advocates (rightfully) point out, most trips in Mississauga aren't to Downtown, but within Mississauga. The trips to downtown can be taken on GO at a much faster speed.
Which leaves the line for trips within Mississauga. The specific result might vary based on the alignment, but I doubt that any subway alignment will produce the ridership results needed for a $10 billion subway. 'Pockets of density' isn't enough for the cost of this subway, especially not while there are far more pressing needs elsewhere.
sixrings
Senior Member
I am just saying people use whatever excuse they want to justify their project. Scarborough deserves a subway. Sheppard for connectivity reasons. No no the sheppard lrt won’t do. People can’t transfer. No no the SRT to LRT won’t do. People can’t transfer. A whole bunch of projects were cancelled to make one project work. Then when they built the extension they thought the compromises were less stations. Damn it that won’t work let’s add those back. A whole bunch of transit projects got killed for the Scarborough extension which is basically the same distance that Kipling is to square one. If you open Pandora’s box dont be surprised when people say if you were going to fund that why not this.
For the record I am on the record over and over saying we should just build networks of lrt and transfers shouldn’t be that big of a deal. But now that we’re here I totally understand why square one residents are saying why not us.
As for the go branch to square one. Guess what. STC could have gotten a go branch. Wasn’t good enough. So again it’s crazy to think those that are asking for it are crazy. What was crazy was opening Pandora’s box to begin with.
Sunnyside
Active Member
I understand this, and perhaps in an ideal world we could have all of it- subway, RER, etc. But, as others have pointed out, the SSE is not a thoroughly well thought out plan that is going to be ludicrously expensive. Not to say we shouldn’t build it, but it has its fair share of problems. If you really want to draw equivalencies then I guess you can- maybe we should’ve built a GO spur off of the Stouffville line instead.
However….
I agree with DirectionNorth that there’s little evidence Mississauga would run the service necessary to feed into a Line 2 extension. Even if we did, if we rely upon feeder service why’s the difference between Line 2 and an electrified Milton at that point? The only way I see we could save costs on Line 2 to Square one is using the rail corridor, which based on prior knowledge they either won’t do because “it’s a subway” or because you would be occupying 2 tracks worth of space in the CP ROW that should preferably be used for Milton service.
I think this premise of extending Line 2 to Mississauga fails mostly because there are better options available. What were the better options for STC?