[Epi]

Well, it won't necessarily reduce workers... I don't think the TTC can just fire people so easily since there's a union.

Hopefully what will happen is they just won't have to hire more people once Transit City comes online (don't have to hire more maintenance workers or more drivers). I don't think that streetcar drivers are necessarily trained to or contracted to drive buses either, so I don't know if they can just switch them over for increased bus service (or to make up that huge hiring gap they seem to have for new drivers).

 

[kettal]

Nope. But then again libraries don't cost billions to build and operate. And there are plenty of alternatives to a public library...school libraries, university libraries, private libraries, etc. One would think though, that a service monopoly would at minimum, at least, come reasonably close to breaking even....particularly given how difficult it has become to drive in this city. I don't expect the TTC to make a profit, but I would like to see it become far more efficient than it is now....automate more functions, use more articulated buses, etc. It seems to me that a lot of that has to do with labour costs. When their cost per employee is close to that of an airline, but includes booth jockeys who could be automated out of existence, that tells me they aren't doing everything possible to generate the most revenue possible. Either cut the booth jockey or cut his/her pay. Can you imagine an airline giving the same pay to a pilot and a counter attendant?

And when the ticket booth guy ends up on welfare, we've gained nothing.

 

[Dilla]

And when the ticket booth guy ends up on welfare, we've gained nothing.

At least we'd be paying them less to do nothing.

On a serious note, this is not the way to look at building a public service. There is no benefit to society at large to make high paying, useless work for fear of putting someone out of a job. Jobs like booth collectors should not exist to only keep people employed. There are supply side benefits to lowering the cost of the TTC on municipal taxpayers which cannot be ignored.

 

[kEiThZ]

Everybody should look at the millions being spent on booth modernization...ended up getting deferred to get the streetcars. Why can't we just spend the cash on automating fare collection and token sales instead?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Having less drivers by slashing busy bus routes or replacing them with LRT isn't necessarily the most desirable situation as it caps vehicle frequencies. In a perfect world, vehicles would always run smoothly and routes would never be overcrowded or be marred by traffic accidents or bunching or drivers stopping at Tim Hortons or need replacement bus service, but the TTC does not and will never exist in that perfect world.

And when the ticket booth guy ends up on welfare, we've gained nothing.

At the rate it takes the TTC to do anything, the ticket booth guy could easily retire before the automated booth gets installed. We're assuming the ticket booth guy is in his 40s, right?

 

[khris]

TTC-Bombardier sign $1.2B street-car deal

The Toronto Transit Commission has officially signed its $1.2-billion contract with Montreal-based Bombardier (TSX:BBD.B) for 204 new low-floor streetcars.

The deal, first announced in April and signed Tuesday, calls for delivery of a prototype vehicle by 2011, with passenger service on the first of the new streetcars to begin in 2012, the TTC said in a statement.

All 204 cars are to be delivered by 2018.

Bombardier said it was the largest single order for light rail vehicles in the world to date.

The new streetcars will replace the current fleet of 248 streetcars purchased in the 1970s and 1980s.

Among other things, the new streetcars will be low-floor, quieter and come with air conditioning, and be able to carry almost twice as many people as the current models.

Previously, the purchase of the streetcars to be built in Thunder Bay, Ont., had been contingent on securing a one-third share of the price from Ottawa.

However, federal Transport Minister John Baird rejected the bid as presented, saying the streetcar project did not qualify for federal stimulus cash.

Toronto city council then approved a revised plan last week to replace Ottawa's share by deferring some capital spending projects until 2018.

Source

 

[lead82]

Finally, this ordeal to get new streetcars is over. We can all now look forward to seeing the new rolling stock in 3-4 years. I'm wondering if the TTC will put the first batch of the new vehicles on any particular route? Queen's Quay East or St. Clair perhaps?

 

[Dilla]

Fantastic news. It will be interesting to see if the POP system makes up for the longer headways...

 

[drum118]

Finally, this ordeal to get new streetcars is over. We can all now look forward to seeing the new rolling stock in 3-4 years. I'm wondering if the TTC will put the first batch of the new vehicles on any particular route? Queen's Quay East or St. Clair perhaps?

When the rebuilt Queens Way opens in late 2011 or early 12, 509 is to have a few. The extension of the Queens Quay to the east is to be 100% of the new cars.

St Clair should get a few since they were to be there on day one of the rebuilding of the line in the first place. Also a pay back to the residents for all this mess they have to put up with.

King is another as it would allow TTC to get away of doubling peak headway with no real impact so say TTC. They would also service the new Cherry St line.

Queen would see a fair number.

Most likely a car or 2 for the rest of the lines to start making the system accessibly.

 

[nfitz]

Now that this is a done deal; the next question is how are they going to deal with fares. With no interaction with the driver, and POP running somehow ... how are people arriving at the streetcar with tokens, childrens tickets, etc. going to get POP? Metropasses and transfers are easy enough. But I would think there would have to be a machine (or perhaps even 5 of them) on each vehicle, that takes tickets, tokens, and cash, dishing out some kind of receipt/transfer.

As there is no such hardware at TTC now, you'd also think that this hardware might as well also be configured to take Presto - at least in a non-pass mode.

I guess now they've got 3 years to figure it out!

 

[Chris84]

Bombardier Press Release

Bombardier doesn't want these streetcars to sound so expensive.
From their press releas "The contract is valued at approximately $851 million CDN ($735 million US, 523 million euros)." That's more like $4M each rather than 6.
I guess there's a lot of extras to get to $1.2B.

Their press release is here.

Bombardier Finalizes Contract to Deliver 204 Streetcars for City of Toronto

June 30, 2009 — Berlin
Transportation

Landmark agreement with Toronto Transit Commission is largest single order for light rail vehicles in the world

Bombardier Transportation announced today that it has signed a contract with the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) for the supply of 204 100% low-floor streetcars to replace the City of Toronto’s aging fleet of vehicles. The contract is valued at approximately $851 million CDN ($735 million US, 523 million euros). Deliveries for the 204-vehicle order are scheduled to take place between 2012 and 2018, with the first prototype vehicles arriving in 2011. Under the agreement, up to an additional 400 vehicles could be ordered at a later date as part of Toronto’s Transit City Plan to expand the existing streetcar network with 120 kilometers of new double-track streetcar lines.

The contract represents the largest single order ever for light rail vehicles worldwide and solidifies Bombardier’s position as the world’s leading provider of light rail technology. Bombardier now has more than 2,700 trams and light rail vehicles operating or on order in cities across Europe, Australia and North America.

“This is an important advancement for public transit in Toronto and a strategic contract for Bombardier,” said Raymond Bachant, President, Bombardier Transportation, North America. “We greatly appreciate the dedicated effort put forth by the TTC, the City of Toronto and the Province of Ontario in bringing this contract to a successful conclusion. We appreciate the trust the city has placed in us with this very special project.”

Grego Peters, President, Light Rail Vehicles, Bombardier Transportation commented: ”We are proud to receive this impressive order and delighted to adapt our proven BOMBARDIER FLEXITY streetcar technology – which is today operating successfully in cities across Europe – for one of North America’s premier urban centers.”

The new vehicles are based on FLEXITY 100% low-floor, light rail technology modified to TTC specifications and special requirements of Toronto’s streetcar network. The five-module, uni-directional vehicles with all-wheel drive are more than 28 meters long and 2.54 meters wide. The new vehicles will provide improved reliability and operating performance for the TTC along with a wide range of features, including a step-less interior allowing easy access at street level; car capacity for more than 240 passengers; increased heating and air conditioning capacity; improved customer comfort; enhanced accessibility, safety and other interior features; locations for bicycles, wheelchairs and strollers; more efficient passenger boarding and exiting; improved communications features; and a regenerative braking system that feeds power back into the TTC network.

More than 450 FLEXITY low-floorvehicles are in successful revenue service in Linz and Innsbruck (Austria), Lodz (Poland), Eskisehir (Turkey), Geneva (Switzerland), Brussels (Belgium), Marseille (France) as well as in Valencia and Alicante (Spain). FLEXITY low-floor vehicles will also soon enter service in Palermo (Italy), Augsburg and Krefeld (Germany).

Final assembly of the new vehicles for Toronto will take place at Bombardier production facilities in Thunder Bay, Ontario.

About Bombardier Transportation
As the global leader in rail technology, Bombardier Transportation offers the broadest portfolio in the rail industry and delivers innovative products and services that set new standards in sustainable mobility. Bombardier’s ECO4 technologies – built on the four cornerstones of energy, efficiency, economy and ecology – conserve energy, protect the environment and help to improve total train performance. Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin, Germany and has a presence in over 60 countries. It has an installed base of over 100,000 vehicles worldwide.

About Bombardier
A world-leading manufacturer of innovative transportation solutions, from commercial aircraft and business jets to rail transportation equipment, systems and services, Bombardier Inc. is a global corporation headquartered in Canada. Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2009, were $19.7 billion US, and its shares are traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange (BBD). Bombardier is listed as an index component to the Dow Jones Sustainability World and North America indexes. News and information are available at www.bombardier.com.

Note to Editors
Photo: TTC 100% low-floor streetcar

BOMBARDIER, FLEXITY and ECO4 are trademarks of Bombardier Inc. or its subsidiaries.

For information

Canada and United States: +1 450 441 3007
David Slack
Talal Zouaoui

Mexico: +52 55 5093 7766
Alejandro Gutierrez-Marcos

Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Central and Eastern Europe: +49 30 98607 1134
Heiner Spannuth

Nordic Countries: +46 10 852 5062
Jonny Hedberg

Russia: +7 495 775 1830
Alexander Bocharov

UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, other countries: +44 1332 266470
Neil Harvey

Benelux: +32 2289 7312
Guy Hendrix

France: +33 6 07 78 95 38
Anne Froger

Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Turkey, India: +35 1 919 693 728
Luis Ramos

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

Why would we expect/want/desire a "profitable" TTC? Are the libraries (etc etc etc) expected to turn a profit?

I haven't mentioned that I think it should be profitable, nor stated an opinion on whether or not it is desirable or expected. All I'm saying is that if focusing on running a more fiscally prudent organization yields savings that could be put towards upgrading the service provided, why wouldn't anyone here want that?

 

[Epi]

Bombardier doesn't want these streetcars to sound so expensive.
From their press releas "The contract is valued at approximately $851 million CDN ($735 million US, 523 million euros)." That's more like $4M each rather than 6.
I guess there's a lot of extras to get to $1.2B.

I was under the impression that a lot of that $1.2 billion is to retool the Thunder Bay factory.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ If that's true then why is the TTC getting the whole bill for the retooling? Anyway the cost to the TTC is project cost not unit replacement cost.

 

[Epi]

^ If that's true then why is the TTC getting the whole bill for the retooling? Anyway the cost to the TTC is project cost not unit replacement cost.

Well the issue was whether or not Bombardier was massaging numbers to make the Flexity sound cheaper to the rest of the world via the press release. Obviously if retooling was in the contract, it would not be a unit cost for the vehicle because you could build 1 or 200 vehicles and the retooling still occurs.