[EnviroTO]

Wow. I knew the province was going to take ownership of the infrastructure but had no idea they were considering ownership of the vehicles. I guess contracting out operation of Transit City to the city would give the province the opportunity to bring in contractors should the TTC workers go on strike. This would make Transit City no longer TTC property and they would have no right to picket it. I wonder if the province might consider buying the subway infrastructure too. Presumably they would already get ownership of the SRT.

 

[waterloowarrior]

Provincial and municipal bureaucrats are talking about the province taking over for the City of Ottawa (the province running procurement and potentially owning the infrastructure for their new rail plan)

 

[Voltz]

If the province wants to 'own' these lines then they better be willing to cover the operating subsidy.

But I see no need for metrolinx to be the owner of the infrastructure, it is really just an exercise to make the lines appear as 'assets' on the government books so they offset the capital debt they will be taking on, which is pointless since a transit line is not something they could ever sell, unless of course the tories get back in to power.

 

[ShonTron]

Doors are slowing been open for other PPP operators. TTC will have first crack of operating TC under their colour as well for VIVA in York Region.

Viva (and all YRT services) are operated by private contractors on behalf of a municipal agency - Miller, Canar, FirstGroup, (all the legacy of the small, patchwork municipal systems) and Vieola (Viva). I believe the Whitby division of DRT is privately operated (Oshawa Transit and APTA were/are CAW), as is Orangeville, Barrie, Port Hope/Cobourg, amongst others.

 

[drum118]

Viva (and all YRT services) are operated by private contractors on behalf of a municipal agency - Miller, Canar, FirstGroup, (all the legacy of the small, patchwork municipal systems) and Vieola (Viva). I believe the Whitby division of DRT is privately operated (Oshawa Transit and APTA were/are CAW), as is Orangeville, Barrie, Port Hope/Cobourg, amongst others.

I know about these guys, but it's more the bigger boys that are setup else where or new ones that will undercut TTC from the word ""GO"".

I cannot see TTC trying to run TC under some plans I have heard without large loses that would have to be spread to the system as a whole and higher fare cost to the riders .

 

[Automation Gallery]

Suburban streetcar bids may delay Toronto lines

Tess Kalinowski
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
The search for streetcars to run on Toronto's new Transit City lines could soon be back to square one, potentially delaying the opening of light rail lines on Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton Ave., according to the chair of the TTC.

The TTC has a $1.22 billion contract with Bombardier to replace its fleet of 204 streetcars. The contract includes an option to negotiate for as many as 368 more LRVs to run on the new suburban Transit City routes owned by the province.

But the Transit City LRVs require less customization because those routes don't have the steep hills and tight turning requirements of the existing 11 TTC streetcar lines, said Metrolinx CEO Robert Prichard.

The provincial agency has power and ownership over all new transit projects, including vehicles, in the Toronto region. It is working with the TTC on specifications for Transit City cars. When that's settled – a process that will take months – Metrolinx will pick either Bombardier, the TTC's preferred supplier, or seek other bidders.

Metrolinx has "the ultimate authority" for the Transit City LRV specifications and getting "a price that's fair to the people of Ontario for that car," Pritchard said.

If Metrolinx opens a new bidding competition that "would almost certainly cause a delay to the opening dates for Sheppard and Finch," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

Sheppard, the first line, is expected to break ground in the fall and open in 2013.
A new procurement also likely would delay the Eglinton Crosstown line because the TTC can't design the tunnelled section of that route until the car design is complete, he said, adding that even short delays on the light rail lines will cost tens of millions.

Although more suppliers might be able to provide the less technically demanding Transit City cars, opening the door to a potentially lower bid would cost the TTC some of the efficiencies in maintaining a single fleet of vehicles, Giambrone said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/665607

 

[Dan416]

Suburban streetcar bids may delay Toronto lines

Tess Kalinowski
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
The search for streetcars to run on Toronto's new Transit City lines could soon be back to square one, potentially delaying the opening of light rail lines on Sheppard East, Finch West and Eglinton Ave., according to the chair of the TTC.

The TTC has a $1.22 billion contract with Bombardier to replace its fleet of 204 streetcars. The contract includes an option to negotiate for as many as 368 more LRVs to run on the new suburban Transit City routes owned by the province.

But the Transit City LRVs require less customization because those routes don't have the steep hills and tight turning requirements of the existing 11 TTC streetcar lines, said Metrolinx CEO Robert Prichard.

The provincial agency has power and ownership over all new transit projects, including vehicles, in the Toronto region. It is working with the TTC on specifications for Transit City cars. When that's settled – a process that will take months – Metrolinx will pick either Bombardier, the TTC's preferred supplier, or seek other bidders.

Metrolinx has "the ultimate authority" for the Transit City LRV specifications and getting "a price that's fair to the people of Ontario for that car," Pritchard said.

If Metrolinx opens a new bidding competition that "would almost certainly cause a delay to the opening dates for Sheppard and Finch," said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

Sheppard, the first line, is expected to break ground in the fall and open in 2013.
A new procurement also likely would delay the Eglinton Crosstown line because the TTC can't design the tunnelled section of that route until the car design is complete, he said, adding that even short delays on the light rail lines will cost tens of millions.

Although more suppliers might be able to provide the less technically demanding Transit City cars, opening the door to a potentially lower bid would cost the TTC some of the efficiencies in maintaining a single fleet of vehicles, Giambrone said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/665607

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. On one hand, I agree with the TTC that they should try to maintain just one type of vehicle, with the TC vehicles just being longer versions.

On the other hand, for a line like Eglinton, I'd really prefer heavy rail. Though I doubt that's what this is about. I sympathize with Metrolinx wanting to buy cheaper vehicles. Really the vehicles could be off-the-shelf except for the gauge.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i seriously hope they don't use standard gauge (1435mm) and stick with a consistent rail gauge (1495mm).

 

[kEiThZ]

But I see no need for metrolinx to be the owner of the infrastructure, it is really just an exercise to make the lines appear as 'assets' on the government books so they offset the capital debt they will be taking on, which is pointless since a transit line is not something they could ever sell, unless of course the tories get back in to power.

It's not as pointless as it looks at first glance. If the province takes on additional liabilities without a matching increase in accumulated assets, then it will add to its net debt, lowering the province's credit rating and resulting in higher interest rates for provincial debt over time.

I have long argued that this is exactly what the province should be doing. It's the only way to get infrastructure built quicker. The province can take on lots of debt and build infrastructure significantly faster if the net impact on its book is limited, than if its doling out grants to municipalities for transit projects.

 

[kEiThZ]

From the New Light Rail Vehicle (LRV) Maintenance & Storage Facility project website, on the PDF for the presentation material, there is listed the LRV Fleet Delivery Schedule as follows:

LRV Fleet Delivery Schedule

* Delivery of 6 Demonstration/Prototype vehicles
By end of 2012
* Delivery of 36 production vehicles annually
Starting in 2013
* Complete fleet delivery (204 cars)
By end of 2018

Bombardier said in their press release:

Bombardier is promising 2011 for the first prototype. The six prototypes will be delivered over the course of a year. The last prototype will be delivered by the end of 2012.

And Miller was wondering why the Streetcars didn't qualify for stimulus money....

 

[rbt]

And Miller was wondering why the Streetcars didn't qualify for stimulus money....

We should be asking what happened to the Building Canada Fund money for the year Stimulus Money appeared. Streetcars most certainly would have qualified for that group of funding.

Stimulus spending isn't stimulus spending when you reduce other budgets at the same time.

 

[MisterF]

I sympathize with Metrolinx wanting to buy cheaper vehicles.

Would buying a different type of vehicle really be any cheaper though? Once the plant up and running making Bombardier streetcars it would probably be cheapest just to have that plant make the Transit City vehicles too.

 

[kEiThZ]

We should be asking what happened to the Building Canada Fund money for the year Stimulus Money appeared. Streetcars most certainly would have qualified for that group of funding.

Stimulus spending isn't stimulus spending when you reduce other budgets at the same time.

Did Miller even apply for the Building Canada Fund? There was certainly nothing in the press about that. And that fund is still running...there are regular announcements about it.

 

[kEiThZ]

Would buying a different type of vehicle really be any cheaper though? Once the plant up and running making Bombardier streetcars it would probably be cheapest just to have that plant make the Transit City vehicles too.

Not just that...there's the cost savings for operations that comes from commonality.

 

[nfitz]

Given the only competitor to Bombardier who felt they had enough of a chance to bid, came in at 50% higher, then it's unrealistic to think that once the assembly line is already in place, that anyone else is going to come anywhere near what Bombardier would bid. I'm sure they all know that it's going to end up with Bombardier ... but a semblance of procedure needs to be maintained, both so that it appears fair, and to try and keep Bombardier's prices lower.

The one catch, is that the contract for the current cars is between the City and Bombardier; so it's difficult for the Province to take out the option; though I guess that the City could exercise the option, and re-sell the vehicles to the Province.