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So apparently Union was a s***show just after the Fireworks yesterday.

I was on Reddit and found this image which clearly shows a very dangerous situation.

It has me wondering, at what point is a subway station and in this case also the Moat evacuated for safety reasons?

Seeing this picture makes me wonder what would happen if someone pulled a weapon or a fire broke out.

There needs to better crowd control measures. If the worst had happened alot of people would have died last night.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comments/100ffuz

RDT_20230101_0742257099030968377812254.png
 
I’m not sure any station should be engineered to meet once-in-a-year crowds. That said, maybe there are ways to suggest to commuters that there are alternate stations to us via signs, etc. if you’re taking the GO the future ‘downtown’ stations (Spadina, East Harbour) may be able to capture some of these people.
 
Richard White said:
So apparently Union was a s***show just after the Fireworks yesterday.

I was on Reddit and found this image which clearly shows a very dangerous situation.

It has me wondering, at what point is a subway station and in this case also the Moat evacuated for safety reasons?

Seeing this picture makes me wonder what would happen if someone pulled a weapon or a fire broke out.

There needs to better crowd control measures. If the worst had happened alot of people would have died last night.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comments/100ffuz
Click to expand...
The people look calm and well organised to me. They appear to either be standing still or moving slowly, which means the crowd control is actually working well and change is not needed.
I remember walking through there many years ago, pre-renovations, at rush hour with that many people present, and also while it was raining too. Not much difference.

The "what if a fire broke out" question is a bit glib, because there's many layers of fire defence that would be enacted which are long and complex in this situation, but also you could make this comment offhand about the exit of any large venue event anywhere. Planning for large crowds does not start by preventing large crowds from ever forming. That's your last option, not first.
 
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Richard White said:
So apparently Union was a s***show just after the Fireworks yesterday.

I was on Reddit and found this image which clearly shows a very dangerous situation.

It has me wondering, at what point is a subway station and in this case also the Moat evacuated for safety reasons?

Seeing this picture makes me wonder what would happen if someone pulled a weapon or a fire broke out.

There needs to better crowd control measures. If the worst had happened alot of people would have died last night.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TTC/comments/100ffuz

View attachment 448036
Click to expand...
What do you expect when there is 10.000's of people trying to get to the subway to get home?? Since is an standard for large events, how do you think this should be control?? What do you think the subway platforms look like dealing with crowd??

If you look closely at the photos, you will see people trying to get to the GO trains though that crowd and hard to do it from past experience.

Even trying to get an 509 or 511 going west had major issues as well the police trying to control the crowd crossing the QQW to get the streetcar though the intersections.

The sky is falling "Really??"
 
Jonny5 said:
The people look calm and well organised to me. They appear to either be standing still or moving slowly, which means the crowd control is actually working well and change is not needed.
I remember walking through there many years ago, pre-renovations, at rush hour with that many people present, and also while it was raining too. Not much difference.

The "what if a fire broke out" question is a bit glib, because there's many layers of fire defence that would be enacted which are long and complex in this situation, but also you could make this comment offhand about the exit of any large venue event anywhere. Planning for large crowds does not start by preventing large crowds from ever forming. That's your last option, not first.
Click to expand...

While I certainly concur that one should not overblow the crowding to make it seem more dangerous or difficult than it actually is; there are measures that can better manage flow.

Communication at any large event site asking people to stagger their exit if possible; letting them know service will still be running in an hour or two; providing multiple options (ie. "Those heading to the subway may wish to consider St. Andrew Station; or if going west on Line 2, consider accessing the Spadina LRT NB.)"

Having police/traffic wardens at key points to prevent intersection blocking and keep flow going is a good idea; just as it is for cars/motorists.

We certainly don't want to discourage people coming out and enjoying events en masse; nor do I wish to imply that any level of management will make transit in such scenarios easy or uncrowded. But I think there is likely some room for improvement here.

In that vein, I'd be really interested to see a volume graph on what the surge looked like at the station, and how long before it dissipated, as that hard data would be revelatory in terms of what is or is not possible.

****

On a vaguely related note, while the TTC does not contemplate any further capacity expansion in its part of Union Station, so far as I am aware (except the portion related to the Waterfront LRT which will be substantially enlarged) ; it is moving to enlarge both King and St. Andrew Stations.

King will be getting elevators and a 'concourse enlargement project'. (currently pencilled in as 2024-2028)

While St. Andrew will be getting an additional direct exit to/from the platform level. (currently pencilled in for 2037) LOL.....
 
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dowlingm said:
Even accepting the essential premise of your statement for the sake of a constructive end to 2022, the reality is that what COVID demand reduction has done is thrown a lifeline to a transit network which was a decade, or multiple decades, behind demand growth - particularly Yonge/Bloor station. We are also seeing some parts of the system recover to much nearer prior demand.

As for car ownership being up - you provide no statistics for this. Given the growth in the city and regional population, it is quite possible that cars/100k pop are not increasing. New developments have less parking.

If there is a problem with transit planning in Toronto it is that the provincial government is planning a large chunk of that transit, and now developments nearby too, with little contribution from municipal government until plans are set in political concrete.
Click to expand...
The provincial government argument has been used for decades now no matter which party is in power and is tiring. Of course there is a problem with revenue being down - I don't think that suggesting we raise taxes or fares on a system that is now considered "underused" would be politically feasible.

Also, there were plenty of statistics from 2020 onward about how mobility preferences were shifting towards personal vehicles and away from public transit. This also doesn't include the use of mobility as a service (e.g. Uber) - it is specifically speaking to personally owned vehicles. Maybe you have data showing a massive resale of these personal vehicles. I don't know why these trends are so shocking to individuals given the broader drivers of cleanliness, work from home and increased digitalisation.

Anyways, the point originally being made, which was apparently triggering is that transit usage patterns are changing and I have yet to see any acknowledgement of this from TTC in how they invest. I would think those who are interested in transit would have a few ideas instead of doubling down on a 2019 model.
 
To provide some background data

Vehicle registrations, 2021​

  • The total number of road motor vehicles registered in Canada increased to 26.2 million in 2021, up 1.9% over 2020.

The number of people living in Canada rose by 1.2%, or 457,888, to 38.5 million in 2021, according to Statistics Canada estimates released Thursday in Ottawa. That’s up from 160,273 the previous year, and closer to the record population-growth levels in the years before the Covid-19 pandemic.

2020 to 2021 >>>Vehicles up 479 075. Population up 457,888. I believe that's an increase in car ownership. Pandemic times isn't the greatest time to do this type of analysis but there it is.
 
TRONto said:
To provide some background data

Vehicle registrations, 2021​

  • The total number of road motor vehicles registered in Canada increased to 26.2 million in 2021, up 1.9% over 2020.

The number of people living in Canada rose by 1.2%, or 457,888, to 38.5 million in 2021, according to Statistics Canada estimates released Thursday in Ottawa. That’s up from 160,273 the previous year, and closer to the record population-growth levels in the years before the Covid-19 pandemic.

2020 to 2021 >>>Vehicles up 479 075. Population up 457,888. I believe that's an increase in car ownership. Pandemic times isn't the greatest time to do this type of analysis but there it is.
Click to expand...
I'd be cautious of extrapolating vehicle registrations to increase in car usage. Next, I'll point out that vehicle registrations do not correlate to personal car usage (a commercial entity may have multiple vehicles, and those count against that number. We were talking about personal car usage). Finally, an anecdote: at one point my parents had 3 cars between them (and I don't have 3 or more parents).
 
TTCdinosaur said:
Anyways, the point originally being made, which was apparently triggering is that transit usage patterns are changing and I have yet to see any acknowledgement of this from TTC in how they invest. I would think those who are interested in transit would have a few ideas instead of doubling down on a 2019 model.
Click to expand...
I think multiple people on this forum are speaking against the 2019 model of rush-hour based transit service patterns and asking for more all-hours service improvements to match the new demand patterns showing up.

I'll also note that people have sounded the death-knell of transit multiple times, and in multiple cities - as well as early in the pandemic; I would be very cautious of making bold statements about where transit is going 1 year after a COVID reopening, and in a world where no one has really figured out the new model of working. Looking at the TTC alone, its ridership has steadily improved over the past year. I'd wager we hit pre-pandemic usage levels by ~ 2027, which...isn't unreasonable given the multi-decade lifetime of transit infrastructure. As to your point that the TTC has hemorrhaged service to personal vehicles, my memory is super-hazy on this, but if I recall a TTC report in the last couple of years, people weren't driving instead of taking the TTC: they were biking, ridesharing - or just not traveling altogether.

Finally, I think it's unsurprising that car usage has recovered almost completely in the GTA. The GTA (and Toronto) is highly car-centric: in the vast majority of our urban area you can't live without your car. Even in large chunks of Toronto there's a huge reliance on 'nodal' developments, like big-box stores that are inherently car-centric. But, as the city's population increases, cars become an increasingly inefficient and ineffective way to travel within a city.
 
TTCdinosaur said:
The provincial government argument has been used for decades now no matter which party is in power and is tiring. Of course there is a problem with revenue being down - I don't think that suggesting we raise taxes or fares on a system that is now considered "underused" would be politically feasible.

Also, there were plenty of statistics from 2020 onward about how mobility preferences were shifting towards personal vehicles and away from public transit. This also doesn't include the use of mobility as a service (e.g. Uber) - it is specifically speaking to personally owned vehicles. Maybe you have data showing a massive resale of these personal vehicles. I don't know why these trends are so shocking to individuals given the broader drivers of cleanliness, work from home and increased digitalisation.

Anyways, the point originally being made, which was apparently triggering is that transit usage patterns are changing and I have yet to see any acknowledgement of this from TTC in how they invest. I would think those who are interested in transit would have a few ideas instead of doubling down on a 2019 model.
Click to expand...
I find the roads a lot busier, it's probably a mix of people from toronto moving out (so not using the ttc anymore) and former ttc riders driving
 
allengeorge said:
It could also partly be your perception, and recency bias coming from the low road usage during the pandemic 🤷
Click to expand...

Seriously. Traffic, especially downtown, looks the same as it was in 2019. Which is to say: terrible. And it goes back to your point of cars being an inefficient way to move people.

I think we’re in a cycle that starts with people making the decision to drive during the pandemic and ends with people eventually choosing transit. Horrible traffic, expensive parking, and dealing with bad drivers are all back again. If transit is reliable and safe people are gonna start questioning why they need to endure the hassle of driving. And I think we’re already seeing it with off-peak GO train travel. They are definitely busier than before the pandemic. Though part of this is also due to a less frequent schedule.
 
I don’t know if there has been a modal shift or not, but what the TTC does have is a perception issue. I talk to friends, coworkers, etc., and at this point they all attempt to avoid the TTC if they can, especially women, who often do feel scared to ride the TTC lately (anecdotal evidence of course). The actual per/100k statistics are not as relevant as the perception of safety, cleanliness, and reliability. When you’ve spent 3 years working from home, you get used to an environment and standard that makes the current TTC experience (which seems to have declined since COVID) even more jarring. These are issues that are not solved by a CEO who hides from the public, and seems to support an ever-declining status quo.
 
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