[Xiaohaha]

I don't think a BRT would be the best solution here solution here. Sheppard demands 3,000 pphpd. I roughly estimate that the practical limit of BRT would be ~4,000 pphpd with 90 seconds frequencies. That should serve us well for the next 20 years. But I can't see that operating at optimal quality in a ROW environment as well as the higher operational costs of running that many busses. BRT can work on Sheppard with okay service quality, but the LRT is the superior option.

Not suggesting BRT on RoW, just the old 85/A, i.e. status quo.

LRT seems to me like the worst possible option. It's a large capital investment for a piece of infrastructure that completely conflicts with the current existence of the Sheppard Subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not suggesting BRT on RoW, just the old 85/A, i.e. status quo.

The status quo is unacceptable. That area of the city needs high order transit.

LRT seems to me like the worst possible option. It's a large capital investment for a piece of infrastructure that completely conflicts with the current existence of the Sheppard Subway.

Well the best option for the route is to abandon the Sheppard Subway and convert it to LRT. Of course that will never happen because of politics.

Even with the Sheppard Subway to Don Mills, I really can't see how the LRT is the worst option. It's an investment that will be good for the next 70 years. It will move countless times more people than busses and faster. And when the Don Mills Subway or LRT is built, the Sheppard LRT will become even better. I'm getting the impression that for whatever reason, you just really don't want LRT.

 

[Xiaohaha]

The status quo is unacceptable. That area of the city needs high order transit.



Well the best option for the route is to abandon the Sheppard Subway and convert it to LRT. Of course that will never happen because of politics.

Even with the Sheppard Subway to Don Mills, I really can't see how the LRT is the worst option. It's an investment that will be good for the next 70 years. It will move countless times more people than busses and faster. And when the Don Mills Subway or LRT is built, the Sheppard LRT will become even better. I'm getting the impression that for whatever reason, you just really don't want LRT.

I don't mind the LRT if the whole line is converted to LRT. I sure don't want a Sheppard East LRT as long as that subway exists. The transfer at Don Mills makes no sense. It might make more sense if there was a line down Don Mills, but that sounds like an equally distant prospect. As long as the subway exists and the main destination remains Yonge St, the LRT transfer to subway just makes no sense. If we're spending this much capital for this project we might as well do it right the first time.

 

[rbt]

Nigera is building a line with a capacity of 40,000 with our existing subway cars.. mind you they will be 8 car trains, but still quite high. also, TTC would never dare touch monorail given it's last failure in trying experimental tech.

Actually, they're targeting 120,000 pphpd with trains from 22 to 26 cars cars long on the red line in 2031.

What you describe is their opening day (phase 1) setup which they expect will be quickly overwhelmed from demand.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I would rather have the sheppard subway extend westward to the university line so that it connects the yonge and university lines. just like the finch lrt line, the sheppard lrt line will be a feeder to the subway lines. further, i would like the drl to start at don mills subway station (so this station becomes a major interchange for multiple lines), and go all the way to downtown and up again up to the eglinton lrt line....

Long time no see City Lover! how are you?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Coruscanti Cognoscente:

East on Don Mills, the Sheppard Subway is projected to carry only 4,000 people per hour per direction (pphpd).

4,000 pphpd can easily be accommodated by bus rapid transit. The light rapid transit Sheppard East is getting will provide far more capacity than the route will need anytime in the foreseeable future. A subway is overkill.


Always remember this: A subway is designed to carry 44,000+ pphpd. At most, the amount of people using Sheppard will be 4,000 pphpd. That's 11x more capacity than the route needs and a huge waste of our money.

Imagine how much of a subsidy would be needed to operate that line. The current Sheppard Subway requires an $8 subsidy from taxpayers per trip. Thats 16 times higher than the avergae subsidy for the rest of the subway. East of Don Mills, where ridership is only 4,000 pphpd, that subsidy could skyrocket to $15+ per trip.

From this link on the 510 Spadina streetcar line:

Ridership (2012) 55,400 (combined with 509 Harbourfront)

And that on a streetcar route that is only 6.17km long.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I hate this, I am beginning to agree with Coruscanti Cognoscente and other who say finish the subway. Just run the headways at 10 minutes and eliminate a crew. To McCowan. Just try to find a way to stop losing money and it should would work.

 

[rbt]

I hate this, I am beginning to agree with Coruscanti Cognoscente and other who say finish the subway. Just run the headways at 10 minutes and eliminate a crew. To McCowan. Just try to find a way to stop losing money and it should would work.

The ongoing cost of building underground is mostly maintenance and much of it exists even if you run 0 (zero) trains per day.

Actual running of the trains is nearly free (as a percentage of overall costs) which is why TTC runs trains every 5 minutes at 1am. It simply doesn't impact their overall finances much.

 

[Rainforest]

I hate this, I am beginning to agree with Coruscanti Cognoscente and other who say finish the subway. Just run the headways at 10 minutes and eliminate a crew. To McCowan. Just try to find a way to stop losing money and it should would work.

The biggest problem is capital costs; such a major undertaking will interfere with the DRL - Don Mills subway project, and a number of other smaller-scale transit improvements elsewhere in the city.

It would be nice to have a longer subway in the Sheppard corridor. But after the city made a major financial commitment to the BD subway extension in Scarborough, it would be unfair to other parts of the city to prioritize Sheppard subway extension that once again focuses on Scarborough.

 

[Rainforest]

Some say that it is better to avoid the capital cost of LRT on Sheppard, and thus keep the corridor available for a subway extension.

But it is not a good idea, if the Sheppard subway is not going to be extended in the next 50 years or more. In that case, we can build LRT now, and in 50 or 60 or 70 years replace its busiest part with subway, if the demand grows enough and other higher-priority corridors are dealt with.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Actually, they're targeting 120,000 pphpd with trains from 22 to 26 cars cars long on the red line in 2031.

What you describe is their opening day (phase 1) setup which they expect will be quickly overwhelmed from demand.

Well their LRT is using our H5 HRT cars. So its not really the traditional north american ROW LRT. Still, 120,000 pphpd on the H5 is incredible. I suppose theyre using very long trains.

I hate this, I am beginning to agree with Coruscanti Cognoscente and other who say finish the subway. Just run the headways at 10 minutes and eliminate a crew. To McCowan. Just try to find a way to stop losing money and it should would work.

I'd be okay with 10 - 15 minute peak headways on Sheppard. 25 minutes off peak. Then the operations should be cost neutral.

Or we could do the smart thing and run LRT every 3-5 minutes. A solution that will be more than good enough for a lifetime.

From this link on the 510 Spadina streetcar line:



And that on a streetcar route that is only 6.17km long.

Wow. That must be 55,000 per day and not 55,000 pphpd. Regardless that is very impressive ridership for a streetcar line. And sheppard will be getting a far more advances light rail line.

I would rather have the sheppard subway extend westward to the university line so that it connects the yonge and university lines. just like the finch lrt line, the sheppard lrt line will be a feeder to the subway lines. further, i would like the drl to start at don mills subway station (so this station becomes a major interchange for multiple lines), and go all the way to downtown and up again up to the eglinton lrt line....

Or we could put in some bus lanes since almost nobody (2,000 people im estimating) would use that route.

Some say that it is better to avoid the capital cost of LRT on Sheppard, and thus keep the corridor available for a subway extension.

But it is not a good idea, if the Sheppard subway is not going to be extended in the next 50 years or more. In that case, we can build LRT now, and in 50 or 60 or 70 years replace its busiest part with subway, if the demand grows enough and other higher-priority corridors are dealt with.

Exactly. This is what we've always done in Toronto. It was done for Bloor, it was done for Danforth and it done for Yonge. They had technologically inferior streetcars (when compared to SELRT) for a century. I really don't understand how anyone in their right mind could justify having no higher order transit along Sheppard and Finch. There is just no logical reason.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I keep on hearing people say that the Sheppard LRT makes no sense because the subway terminates at Don Mills. It makes me wonder if there was this much opposition to intermediate transit solution back in the 20th century. The Bloor subway had streetcars (that are hardly comparable to the high quality of the SELRT) running west and east from Keele and Woodbine terminals of the Bloor-Danforth subway until there was enough demand to justify extending the subway to replace the streetcars.

 

[M II A II R II K]

So the Sheppard Subway can slowly gobble up the SELRT bit by bit....

Just run the Sheppard Subway during peak hours only.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Just run the Sheppard Subway during peak hours only.

And how exactly is this better than the LRT that would run all day?

 

[Rainforest]

It should be also noted that the nuisance of LRT-to-subway transfer at Don Mills will be somewhat mitigated once the DRL - Don Mills subway reaches Sheppard.

In such configuration, 40% to 60% of the LRT riders will transfer directly to Don Mills subway and travel south. For that group of riders, it will not matter whether their LRT ends at Don Mills or continues further west.