[innsertnamehere]

The transfer will be literally walking across a platform anyways, just about as undifficult of a transfer as you can possibly make. Sheppard trains will only use one side of the platform like they do currently, and the other side will be converted to be the sheppard LRT platform. Because you only need a single platform at the end of transit lines, they will be beside each other and the transfer will simply involve walking 10 meters across the platform.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

10 meters is a long walk. We better spend $4 Billion to eliminate that

 

[Voltz]

The transit planning gymnastics that people keep doing to try and justify the Sheppard Subway get more outlandish and absurd year after year.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The transit planning gymnastics that people keep doing to try and justify the Sheppard Subway get more outlandish and absurd year after year.

It amazes me what people are willing to sacrifice so that Sheppard won't have the privilege of having an amazing LRT system:

Just run the Sheppard Subway during peak hours only.

Really? this has to be the craziest idea I've heard all year. Are there people out there, who'd if given the option to have a very fast and reliable LRT system that runs around the clock and will provide Sheppard with all its rapid transit needs for more than a century, would pick a subway even if it meant it only operated Monday - Friday, 4 - 6 PM and 7 to 10 PM.

 

[ShonTron]

I keep on hearing people say that the Sheppard LRT makes no sense because the subway terminates at Don Mills. It makes me wonder if there was this much opposition to intermediate transit solution back in the 20th century. The Bloor subway had streetcars (that are hardly comparable to the high quality of the SELRT) running west and east from Keele and Woodbine terminals of the Bloor-Danforth subway until there was enough demand to justify extending the subway to replace the streetcars.

It wasn't a matter of demand, it was a matter of construction timing and phasing. The shortened Bloor Car from Jane to Keele Station and Danforth Car from Woodbine Station to Luttrel Loop lasted only two years, providing higher-capacity shuttles connecting the old Bloor Car terminals and suburban buses (beyond Jane and Luttrel was the suburban zone boundary) to the subway.

 

[andrewpmk]

Some say that it is better to avoid the capital cost of LRT on Sheppard, and thus keep the corridor available for a subway extension.

But it is not a good idea, if the Sheppard subway is not going to be extended in the next 50 years or more. In that case, we can build LRT now, and in 50 or 60 or 70 years replace its busiest part with subway, if the demand grows enough and other higher-priority corridors are dealt with.

What makes you think that it will take this long for there to be enough demand to justify a subway extension?

Look at the map of new residential developments posted on Steve Munro's website. Notice how many circles there are along Sheppard Avenue East and around Scarborough Centre. There are only a couple others areas in the city, excluding downtown, where there are this many condos being built (North York Centre, Yonge & Eglinton, Humber Bay Shores, Kipling/Bloor). Sheppard East is a hot area for condo developers; it makes no sense to build 20 and 30 storey condos and not build a subway. Remember that this is a map of proposed residential development from 2008-2012, so everything on this map was proposed or built after 2007, when Transit City was first proposed.

Then notice how few circles there are on Finch West. There are a trivial number of new condos here, but if you exclude Finch/Yonge, probably an order of magnitude less than Sheppard east of Yonge. Logically, Sheppard East ought to have much higher ridership than Finch West.

 

[LNahid2000]

^The problem is that employment increases subway ridership far more than condos. If these people don't work on a subway line, they probably won't bother taking the subway anyway.

 

[BurlOak]

Some say that it is better to avoid the capital cost of LRT on Sheppard, and thus keep the corridor available for a subway extension.

But it is not a good idea, if the Sheppard subway is not going to be extended in the next 50 years or more. In that case, we can build LRT now, and in 50 or 60 or 70 years replace its busiest part with subway, if the demand grows enough and other higher-priority corridors are dealt with.

I can see the same mistake being made on Sheppard that was made for the SRT.

For the SRT, the public wanted to get rid of the transfer. The LRT supports were so rigid and so unwilling to compromise that they continued to stick with the same Transit City LRT plan that voters had already rejected. Eventually things came to a head and the LRT was replaced with a subway extension. If some compromise was considered, they may have chosen the connected Eglinton and SRT option for much less money. The entire episode also consumed the entire debate within the City.

Now for Sheppard, the LRT supports are again saying that the Sheppard LRT is the number one* priority in Toronto and it must be built so that the subway can be killed. (oddly, many of these same people actually say the DRL is the top priority, but their actions show the number one priority to be the Sheppard LRT). Instead of finding a compromise where a subway that is wanted by all sides is promoted, the LRT people refuse to budge on their plans. It could be that this same stubornness could lead to years of delays.

The other thing both of these have done is to make the public very weary of transit planning and it results in them not wanting to support any new taxes to pay for a transit plan. If the current makeup of Mayor/Council is more interested in building "sbuways" than LRT, they would have been a lot farther ahead to build subways now. If LRT is a good idea, it could always be built at a later time.

 

[innsertnamehere]

What makes you think that it will take this long for there to be enough demand to justify a subway extension?

Look at the map of new residential developments posted on Steve Munro's website. Notice how many circles there are along Sheppard Avenue East and around Scarborough Centre. There are only a couple others areas in the city, excluding downtown, where there are this many condos being built (North York Centre, Yonge & Eglinton, Humber Bay Shores, Kipling/Bloor). Sheppard East is a hot area for condo developers; it makes no sense to build 20 and 30 storey condos and not build a subway. Remember that this is a map of proposed residential development from 2008-2012, so everything on this map was proposed or built after 2007, when Transit City was first proposed.

Then notice how few circles there are on Finch West. There are a trivial number of new condos here, but if you exclude Finch/Yonge, probably an order of magnitude less than Sheppard east of Yonge. Logically, Sheppard East ought to have much higher ridership than Finch West.

how does it make no sense? subways should be built where there are jobs now where people live. You could line the entirety of SHeppard avenue with Condos 20-30 floors high and could still barely justify a subway, provided zero employment is added. Jobs are what produce ridership, residential not so much. 20-30 floor condos are completely justifiable for an LRT, the Sheppard subway is currently lined with them and still posts abysmal ridership.

I can see the same mistake being made on Sheppard that was made for the SRT.

For the SRT, the public wanted to get rid of the transfer. The LRT supports were so rigid and so unwilling to compromise that they continued to stick with the same Transit City LRT plan that voters had already rejected. Eventually things came to a head and the LRT was replaced with a subway extension. If some compromise was considered, they may have chosen the connected Eglinton and SRT option for much less money. The entire episode also consumed the entire debate within the City.

Now for Sheppard, the LRT supports are again saying that the Sheppard LRT is the number one* priority in Toronto and it must be built so that the subway can be killed. (oddly, many of these same people actually say the DRL is the top priority, but their actions show the number one priority to be the Sheppard LRT). Instead of finding a compromise where a subway that is wanted by all sides is promoted, the LRT people refuse to budge on their plans. It could be that this same stubornness could lead to years of delays.

The other thing both of these have done is to make the public very weary of transit planning and it results in them not wanting to support any new taxes to pay for a transit plan. If the current makeup of Mayor/Council is more interested in building "sbuways" than LRT, they would have been a lot farther ahead to build subways now. If LRT is a good idea, it could always be built at a later time.

I don't think anyone is deluding themselves that Sheppard is the highest priority, but $1 billion isn't enough for a DRL, SHeppard has already been funded for 4 years, lots of money has already been spent on the project, so nobody thinks it is good to cancel it because there is something higher priority. Most beleive we should build both, because that isn't impossible.

Also, I challenge what "the public wants", as it often isn't the best. the public wanted the gas plants cancelled, but that wasn't exactly a smart thing to do. Toronto is retarded this way, every time someone finally shows some leadership and tries to do something, people yell and scream and it gets cancelled 3 years into a 5-10 year deployment schedule. money is wasted, and we end up with nothing. A sheppard subway isn't happening anytime soon, it doesn't make sense, and LRT is the proper solution. Get used to it, We are too late into the process for cancellation to make sense. Much like the gas plants, the LRT may have been fine to cancel in the early years (2010) but our publically elected officials have decided that LRT is what we will get and that is that. To cancel now would be to continuously stagnate the city into gridlock and prove to be an ubsurd waste of money just like the cancellation of the Scarborough LRT which still has unaccounted for costs to pile on top of the already known $85 million already spent. If the Sheppard LRT were to be cancelled, we would be looking at dropping probably close to $300 million down the hole total so that we can cancel it. Just build the damn thing, we are past the point of reasonable return.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I can see the same mistake being made on Sheppard that was made for the SRT.

For the SRT, the public wanted to get rid of the transfer. The LRT supports were so rigid and so unwilling to compromise that they continued to stick with the same Transit City LRT plan that voters had already rejected. Eventually things came to a head and the LRT was replaced with a subway extension. If some compromise was considered, they may have chosen the connected Eglinton and SRT option for much less money. The entire episode also consumed the entire debate within the City.

Now for Sheppard, the LRT supports are again saying that the Sheppard LRT is the number one* priority in Toronto and it must be built so that the subway can be killed. (oddly, many of these same people actually say the DRL is the top priority, but their actions show the number one priority to be the Sheppard LRT). Instead of finding a compromise where a subway that is wanted by all sides is promoted, the LRT people refuse to budge on their plans. It could be that this same stubornness could lead to years of delays.

The other thing both of these have done is to make the public very weary of transit planning and it results in them not wanting to support any new taxes to pay for a transit plan. If the current makeup of Mayor/Council is more interested in building "sbuways" than LRT, they would have been a lot farther ahead to build subways now. If LRT is a good idea, it could always be built at a later time.

Which means in 2033 we will be build the subway out anyway. SMH at Toronto man.

 

[innsertnamehere]

no we won't, the sheppard subway will be bead the day the sheppard LRT opens. the LRT will be able to handle ridership for the next 40-50 years easy, there simply isn't going to be the need for a subway within our lifetimes.

 

[Adjei]

no we won't, the sheppard subway will be bead the day the sheppard LRT opens. the LRT will be able to handle ridership for the next 40-50 years easy, there simply isn't going to be the need for a subway within our lifetimes.

Plus where is the close to 2 billion extra that is needed for the subway. I doubt the Feds are going to pitch in anything and the province sure ain't. The city can't afford to put in that kind of money. Just because funding was able to line up for a subway for the SRT doesn't mean things will line up for Sheppard. If it was a matter of just switching to a subway from a LRT with no extra cost, it would have been done. Unfortunately there's a 2 billion funding gap needed for this one.

 

[Rainforest]

What makes you think that it will take this long for there to be enough demand to justify a subway extension?

I cannot know that for sure. However, it is very likely that demand in the Downtown - Don Mills corridor will be much higher than in the Sheppard corridor.

We are always behind in transit construction and I can see little hope of catching up; look at how hard it was to procure full funding for the mere 7 km of Scarborough subway. In that situation, it makes sense to focus on the corridor with higher demand.

LRT will be able to handle demand on Sheppard for a long time. The case for subway in this corridor is not that subway is the only way to manage the demand, but that the subway would be faster and can attract more choice riders. That would be nice, but the price of directing nearly all available funding to the Sheppard corridor will be major neglect of both DRL and numerous medium-demand (LRT or BRT) corridors elsewhere in the city.

Look at the map of new residential developments posted on Steve Munro's website. Notice how many circles there are along Sheppard Avenue East and around Scarborough Centre. There are only a couple others areas in the city, excluding downtown, where there are this many condos being built (North York Centre, Yonge & Eglinton, Humber Bay Shores, Kipling/Bloor). Sheppard East is a hot area for condo developers; it makes no sense to build 20 and 30 storey condos and not build a subway. Remember that this is a map of proposed residential development from 2008-2012, so everything on this map was proposed or built after 2007, when Transit City was first proposed.

Then notice how few circles there are on Finch West. There are a trivial number of new condos here, but if you exclude Finch/Yonge, probably an order of magnitude less than Sheppard east of Yonge. Logically, Sheppard East ought to have much higher ridership than Finch West.

First of all, even a group of ten 30-storey condos does not require a subway; the contribution of one such cluster to the peak demand will be less than 1,000 riders per hour. The subway-level demand is generated primarily by feeder routes, the local density playing relatively minor role.

Secondly, Scarborough Centre is getting another subway line going south-west; and that is where most of riders want to travel, not north-west to North York.

Residents of new condos along Sheppard East will benefit from the DRL - Don Mills subway, as many of them will want to travel downtown, and the said subway will be within a short surface ride from them and able to take them downtown. Moreover, if they take Don Mills subway, they will not contribute to Yonge overcrowding (which happens if their only option is to take Sheppard subway to Yonge).

 

[Rainforest]

Now for Sheppard, the LRT supports are again saying that the Sheppard LRT is the number one* priority in Toronto and it must be built so that the subway can be killed. (oddly, many of these same people actually say the DRL is the top priority, but their actions show the number one priority to be the Sheppard LRT). Instead of finding a compromise where a subway that is wanted by all sides is promoted, the LRT people refuse to budge on their plans. It could be that this same stubornness could lead to years of delays.

It would be very wrong to treat Sheppard LRT as a tool to kill Sheppard subway. LRT is an improvement on its own right, proposed for a corridor that cannot realistically expect a subway; that's the proper way to look at it.

The only reason Sheppard LRT is on the priority list, is that a fair amount of design work has been completed; if it is cancelled or postponed, those costs will be wasted.

If someone can conduct a comprehensive opinion poll amongst the residents living along the proposed Sheppard LRT route; and the majority of said residents, with full understanding that the subway is not coming, still reject the LRT; then I have no problem with transferring the funds to another project. They could be used as a down payment for DRL, or perhaps used to build Waterfront East LRT.

But I suspect that under the above conditions, the majority of residents will vote for LRT, rather than see their transit funding transferred elsewhere.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Plus where is the close to 2 billion extra that is needed for the subway. I doubt the Feds are going to pitch in anything and the province sure ain't. The city can't afford to put in that kind of money. Just because funding was able to line up for a subway for the SRT doesn't mean things will line up for Sheppard. If it was a matter of just switching to a subway from a LRT with no extra cost, it would have been done. Unfortunately there's a 2 billion funding gap needed for this one.

The next priority is the DRL and Eglinton West/East for sure.