[gweed123]

I've been thinking, and I think I've found a way that the Sheppard Subway could be converted to LRT while keeping the line open for the majority of construction:

Step 1: Open up the remainder of each of the Sheppard platforms (ie knock out the false walls that constrict it to a 4 train platform instead of a 6 train).

Step 2: Reduce the length of the trains on Sheppard to 3 cars from 4, increasing frequency if needed to offset.

Step 3: Close off half the platform length, and lower that half of the platform to low-floor LRT height, adjusting escalators, stairs, and elevators as needed. Sheppard trains will continue to use the other half the platform during construction.

Step 4: Shut the subway down to change track gauge and install new power supplies. I don't know how long this would take, but I would guess if it's a complete shutdown it could be measured comfortably in weeks.

Step 5: Re-open the subway using LRT trains on the newly renovated halves of the platform.

Step 6: Close the other half of the platform and repeat the lowering process.


This is not all that dissimilar to what GO did at several Lakeshore West GO stations in recent years. Naturally though, this would be more complicated because of the switch-over of track gauge and power supplies. Also, elevator access, depending on where the elevator is on the platform, may need to be worked out on a station-by-station basis in terms of what is behind hoarding for how long and how long various access elements are off limits to the public.

 

[Solid Snake]

I've been thinking, and I think I've found a way that the Sheppard Subway could be converted to LRT while keeping the line open for the majority of construction:

Step 1: Open up the remainder of each of the Sheppard platforms (ie knock out the false walls that constrict it to a 4 train platform instead of a 6 train).

Step 2: Reduce the length of the trains on Sheppard to 3 cars from 4, increasing frequency if needed to offset.

Step 3: Close off half the platform length, and lower that half of the platform to low-floor LRT height, adjusting escalators, stairs, and elevators as needed. Sheppard trains will continue to use the other half the platform during construction.

Step 4: Shut the subway down to change track gauge and install new power supplies. I don't know how long this would take, but I would guess if it's a complete shutdown it could be measured comfortably in weeks.

Step 5: Re-open the subway using LRT trains on the newly renovated halves of the platform.

Step 6: Close the other half of the platform and repeat the lowering process.


This is not all that dissimilar to what GO did at several Lakeshore West GO stations in recent years. Naturally though, this would be more complicated because of the switch-over of track gauge and power supplies. Also, elevator access, depending on where the elevator is on the platform, may need to be worked out on a station-by-station basis in terms of what is behind hoarding for how long and how long various access elements are off limits to the public.

Metrolinx already said no

 

[sixrings]

Metrolinx already said no

partially because the cost was more then they thought it was going to be not because it doesn't make sense. Now (after they said no) they have introduced revenue tools which makes this plan make a lot of sense. With limited finances the vote was no it is possible now that the vote would or could become yes.

 

[Solid Snake]

partially because the cost was more then they thought it was going to be not because it doesn't make sense. Now (after they said no) they have introduced revenue tools which makes this plan make a lot of sense. With limited finances the vote was no it is possible now that the vote would or could become yes.

No politicians will go there

 

[Fred.S]

Step 2: Reduce the length of the trains on Sheppard to 3 cars from 4, increasing frequency if needed to offset.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the subway cars need to be run in pairs. There would probably need to be some extensive modifications to the electronics and systems to run in trains of 3.

 

[smallspy]

I could be mistaken, but I believe the subway cars need to be run in pairs. There would probably need to be some extensive modifications to the electronics and systems to run in trains of 3.

You are not mistaken in the least.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

Metrolinx already said no

Metrolinx also said no to a Scarborough Subway. Look at how long that lasted. Like sixrings said, it was rejected because of cost and partially because of political feasibility, not technical feasibility.

I've said it before, once the Eglinton LRT opens, people are going to see Eglinton running surface east of Don Mills and in a subway west of it, and are going to start asking "Why can't we do the same on Sheppard? Why do I have to transfer across Don Mills on Sheppard, but not on Eglinton?".

This anti-LRT populism crap is temporary. Once it gets implemented somewhere in Toronto, the rejection levels to it will drop significantly. Naturally, this plan should remain on the back-burner until Eglinton is open and the DRL is fully funded though.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the subway cars need to be run in pairs. There would probably need to be some extensive modifications to the electronics and systems to run in trains of 3.

I was not aware of that. I was (mistakenly) under the impression that each cab was stand-alone. Would the signalling system on Sheppard allow for 2 car trains at twice the current frequency? I know it would increase operational costs, but it would be a temporary increase.

 

[sixrings]

Metrolinx also said no to a Scarborough Subway. Look at how long that lasted. Like sixrings said, it was rejected because of cost and partially because of political feasibility, not technical feasibility.

I've said it before, once the Eglinton LRT opens, people are going to see Eglinton running surface east of Don Mills and in a subway west of it, and are going to start asking "Why can't we do the same on Sheppard? Why do I have to transfer across Don Mills on Sheppard, but not on Eglinton?".

This anti-LRT populism crap is temporary. Once it gets implemented somewhere in Toronto, the rejection levels to it will drop significantly. Naturally, this plan should remain on the back-burner until Eglinton is open and the DRL is fully funded though.

I agree once Eglinton opens that people are going to want to eliminate the Sheppard transfer. By then Sheppard will have been open for over 20 years and will start to need to be serviced. Once we need to spend money fixing things we might as well convert the thing so that the transfer is eliminated and to make it less expensive to expand the system west. Eglinton will change a lot of peoples minds. The problem now is we don't have an example to look at. Instead LRT is compared to streetcars which it isn't.

 

[vz64]

I was thinking that converting Sheppard Line to LRT might be done cheaper if Metrolinx finds/orders some modified, high-platform LRT vehicles, something like those in the picture:

 

[M II A II R II K]

Maybe in 2030 when the T1s have to be replaced. Unless they put TR handy me downs on the stub.

 

[accura407]

I still think wasting any extra capital on retooling an existing newly built line is a waste of money...that can be used in other means.

I personally would love to see the subway extended east to Warden. Make the platforms smaller because I don't think it will ever warrant 6-car trains.
Build a nice terminal at Warden that can accommodate the new 60ft articulated buses.

Run those buses along Sheppard East. Widen Sheppard to a simple 6 lane road with the outer lanes for buses only from Pharmacy to Markham Road. Build large bus shelters.

I am pretty sure this would cost less than the current LRT plan and would fix problems for the foreseeable future...

 

[M II A II R II K]

They could have it leave Sheppard by extending it to be some kind of Uptown Express line. The East London line used to be a stub until it was hacked onto the Overground.

 

[gweed123]

I agree once Eglinton opens that people are going to want to eliminate the Sheppard transfer. By then Sheppard will have been open for over 20 years and will start to need to be serviced. Once we need to spend money fixing things we might as well convert the thing so that the transfer is eliminated and to make it less expensive to expand the system west. Eglinton will change a lot of peoples minds. The problem now is we don't have an example to look at. Instead LRT is compared to streetcars which it isn't.

Exactly. I did some math a while ago on the cost of extending the Sheppard Subway west to Downsview vs converting it to LRT and extending it west as mostly an at-grade LRT. The costs are virtually the same. Plus, any subway extension west of Downsview will never happen in our lifetime, whereas an at-grade LRT extension just might.

I was thinking that converting Sheppard Line to LRT might be done cheaper if Metrolinx finds/orders some modified, high-platform LRT vehicles, something like those in the picture:

Now that it's clear that the Sheppard East LRT is going to be completely separated from the rest of the LRT system, going high floor may be simpler. However, I'm not sure what kind of design changes that would spur for the SELRT itself.

I still think wasting any extra capital on retooling an existing newly built line is a waste of money...that can be used in other means.

I personally would love to see the subway extended east to Warden. Make the platforms smaller because I don't think it will ever warrant 6-car trains.
Build a nice terminal at Warden that can accommodate the new 60ft articulated buses.

Run those buses along Sheppard East. Widen Sheppard to a simple 6 lane road with the outer lanes for buses only from Pharmacy to Markham Road. Build large bus shelters.

I am pretty sure this would cost less than the current LRT plan and would fix problems for the foreseeable future...

The subway + BRT model does certainly have merit. However, I think the time has passed for making wholesale changes to Phase 1 of the Big Move. Heck, the SELRT should be open by now. IMO the best thing to do at this point is to build what is currently on the books, and focus our attention on planning the next phase of projects, which centres around the DRL.

I guess I'm just partial to the idea of having a true northern crosstown line, connecting the two LRT lines on Finch West and Sheppard East via the Sheppard Subway and an LRT link from Sheppard-Yonge, across to Downsview, then up Dufferin to Finch. It just simplifies the system immensely. You have the Lower Crosstown (Bloor), the Midtown Crosstown (Eglinton), and the Uptown Crosstown (Sheppard-Finch).

Maybe in 2030 when the T1s have to be replaced. Unless they put TR handy me downs on the stub.

Most of Toronto's transit capital would be sewn up in the DRL until around then anyway, certainly until 2025. Of course, with the DRL opening, the T1s could also be shifted to either the DRL or to Bloor-Danforth in order to limit the capital expense of buying so many new trains for the DRL.

 

[ehlow]

At some point you have to finalize the decisions and stick with the decisions for the next 5-10 years to get through the EA and construction. If we keep making changes, you throw away years of work and millions of dollars every time, the further along the worse it is.

I'd like to see new transit built in my life time, and it is desperately needed. These projects will improve people's lives significantly.
Despite any criticisms, the LRTs are significantly better than the current busses.

Being protected from traffic alone is a significant upgrade, not to mention:
-smoother running & larger vehicles with all door boarding
-wider stop spacing
-more reliable & frequent service

I rode the bus from Yonge & Eglinton to Kennedy station and it was an uncomfortably crowded ride that took more than an hour. Doing that every day would be brutal.

 

[christiesplits]

I personally would love to see the subway extended east to Warden. Make the platforms smaller because I don't think it will ever warrant 6-car trains.
Build a nice terminal at Warden that can accommodate the new 60ft articulated buses.

This is an interesting proposition, and possible a compromise between the rabid pro-subway and pro-LRT sides.