[Dan416]

I really don't see the point in wasting money converting Sheppard when you can put the whole thing on Finch. The only reason anyone would think of doing that is to render Sheppard pointless and a waste of money having built it at all.

No, the best thing to do is leave Sheppard as is, and build a Finch LRT.

Stop this nonsense of trying to connect Finch and Sheppard. It's silly.

 

[drum118]

When one looks at the ridership on both Finch and Sheppard, both roads should have LRT from one end to the other.

This is no different than what taking place in the US, let around the world.

Its far better off shutting the stubway down 100% and building surface LRT on top of it until some distance future there is a need for a subway.

You run the stubway until the surface line is ready to go.

Same will happen the opposite way for extending the subway.

As for connecting Finch to Sheppard, that is pure dumb and forces riders to do duel transfers on Finch and waste their time. This is a flaw plan, as people think riders are only going south when in fact its in all directions.

 

[Rainforest]

For reference, here is a map of what I'm talking about:

Blue: At grade
Brown: Underground
Orange: Elevated

The section between Keele and Yonge would have a limited number of traffic lights, which is why I think it's fine being at grade though that section. Notice that is uses West Donland Park to connect Finch West to Sheppard West. Between Yonge and Don Mills, the Sheppard Subway is converted to underground LRT. Then East of Don Mills the line is elevated to Scarborough Centre, because there are a lot of traffic lights between Don Mills and McCowan. East of Scarborough Centre to Malvern, it's at grade using the Transit City right-of-way.

The big negative here is the conversion of the Sheppard Subway to underground LRT. Would cost around $700 Million and necessitate a shutdown for a period of time. But users of the line would be getting enormously improved connectivity, that I think that the shutdown would be well worth it.

The Sheppard Subway proposal had peak ridership of around 7,000 pphpd. It's difficult to justify paying the price of an underground subway extension with that ridership, but I think the cheaper elevated eastward extension could be justified. This section east of Don Mills would have higher peak ridership than the Eglinton Crosstown, if those projections are accurate.

The section west of Yonge would link the FWLRT with the Yonge line, letting those commuters have a transfer-free ride to Yonge.

Although this proposal has some off-road and elevated sections, and thus is more appealing than a plain street-median crosstown LRT, it still has some issues:

1) Travel along Finch West is still disrupted, riders would have to transfer at Keele or at Dufferin if they want to stay on Finch.

2) Since Finch West is being built as low-floor LRT, forcing the same technology into the existing Sheppard tunnel results in a very expensive conversion.

3) I doubt that the LRT line can fit in the West Donland Park.

4) Elevated along Sheppard east of 404 is questionable. I personally do not mind, but the residents may not be happy.

I'd rather complete a continuous Finch LRT line first (both West and East). It won't be a great route for long Crosstown trips (a bit slow), but it will be a huge improvement over the mixed-traffic buses, it wouldn't disrupt the existing travel patterns, and is relatively affordable.

I'd keep Sheppard subway as is for the next 20-25 years, and then decide what to do with it. Hope that it can be converted to something that runs fast, has limited stops, is compatible with the existing tunnel (high floor); but is more versatile than a full-fledged subway, can handle tighter turns and steeper grades, and therefore can be extended for less.

 

[W. K. Lis]

See link about
Scarborough subway might already be off track

TTC boss warns $3.2-billion budget and timetable are in danger as city works to finalize route.

Any underground heavy rail extension will just too expensive to build in a low-density area. Especially, if the NIMBYs would create an uprising against tall buildings needed to exist to support them.

 

[cplchanb]

See link about
Scarborough subway might already be off track

TTC boss warns $3.2-billion budget and timetable are in danger as city works to finalize route.

Any underground heavy rail extension will just too expensive to build in a low-density area. Especially, if the NIMBYs would create an uprising against tall buildings needed to exist to support them.

on the subject of nimbys...apart from filing for injunctions, do they have any legal basis for trying to block infrastructure projects that arent in their property??

 

[Hopkins123]

For reference, here is a map of what I'm talking about:

Blue: At grade
Brown: Underground
Orange: Elevated

The section between Keele and Yonge would have a limited number of traffic lights, which is why I think it's fine being at grade though that section. Notice that is uses West Donland Park to connect Finch West to Sheppard West. Between Yonge and Don Mills, the Sheppard Subway is converted to underground LRT. Then East of Don Mills the line is elevated to Scarborough Centre, because there are a lot of traffic lights between Don Mills and McCowan. East of Scarborough Centre to Malvern, it's at grade using the Transit City right-of-way.

The big negative here is the conversion of the Sheppard Subway to underground LRT. Would cost around $700 Million and necessitate a shutdown for a period of time. But users of the line would be getting enormously improved connectivity, that I think that the shutdown would be well worth it.

The Sheppard Subway proposal had peak ridership of around 7,000 pphpd. It's difficult to justify paying the price of an underground subway extension with that ridership, but I think the cheaper elevated eastward extension could be justified. This section east of Don Mills would have higher peak ridership than the Eglinton Crosstown, if those projections are accurate.

The section west of Yonge would link the FWLRT with the Yonge line, letting those commuters have a transfer-free ride to Yonge.

If I may improve upon your proposal:




As you can see I made a few tweaks. I added an extension south to Woodbine Racetrack and Centre. Also, instead of cutting through the parklands northwest of Bathurst/Sheppard I have the line continue straight across Sheppard to Sheppard West Stn then north on Dufferin then west past Finch West Stn to resume normal routing. The density along Sheppard and Dufferin surpasses what's on the tiny stretch of Finch as depicted on your map. I also have the alignment in the east go south on Brimley, instead of McCowan keeping the Bloor-Danforth interchange in the preexisitng SCC station site.

The Finch and Dufferin segments would be at-grade while the alignment east of Sheppard West Stn grade-separated.

 

[cplchanb]

If I may improve upon your proposal:

http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/d...h-Sheppard Rapid Transit_zpsl9q8x2yx.png.html
As you can see I made a few tweaks. I added an extension south to Woodbine Racetrack and Centre. Also, instead of cutting through the parklands northwest of Bathurst/Sheppard I have the line continue straight across Sheppard to Sheppard West Stn then north on Dufferin then west past Finch West Stn to resume normal routing. The density along Sheppard and Dufferin surpasses what's on the tiny stretch of Finch as depicted on your map. I also have the alignment in the east go south on Brimley, instead of McCowan keeping the Bloor-Danforth interchange in the preexisitng SCC station site.

The Finch and Dufferin segments would be at-grade while the alignment east of Sheppard West Stn grade-separated.

IMO the stop spacing is too dense west of downsview. The concept of LRT is to be a lighter form of rail compared to metro, but this is becoming more or less a streecar operation, which
is the chief reason why most of our lines DT dont work well. Stops are too close (as well as car traffic). Keep the stops at major intersections only and leave the in betweens to buses

 

[Hopkins123]

Ironically, I purposefully omitted three of the Metrolinx's proposed stops along Finch West (Stevenson, Duncanwoods and Alness) in my map because I thought that there were too many. Lol.

 

[sixrings]

If I may improve upon your proposal:




As you can see I made a few tweaks. I added an extension south to Woodbine Racetrack and Centre. Also, instead of cutting through the parklands northwest of Bathurst/Sheppard I have the line continue straight across Sheppard to Sheppard West Stn then north on Dufferin then west past Finch West Stn to resume normal routing. The density along Sheppard and Dufferin surpasses what's on the tiny stretch of Finch as depicted on your map. I also have the alignment in the east go south on Brimley, instead of McCowan keeping the Bloor-Danforth interchange in the preexisitng SCC station site.

The Finch and Dufferin segments would be at-grade while the alignment east of Sheppard West Stn grade-separated.

If I may improve upon your proposal...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If I may improve upon your proposal:




As you can see I made a few tweaks. I added an extension south to Woodbine Racetrack and Centre. Also, instead of cutting through the parklands northwest of Bathurst/Sheppard I have the line continue straight across Sheppard to Sheppard West Stn then north on Dufferin then west past Finch West Stn to resume normal routing. The density along Sheppard and Dufferin surpasses what's on the tiny stretch of Finch as depicted on your map. I also have the alignment in the east go south on Brimley, instead of McCowan keeping the Bloor-Danforth interchange in the preexisitng SCC station site.

The Finch and Dufferin segments would be at-grade while the alignment east of Sheppard West Stn grade-separated.

I like it.

I had the line cut through the West Donlands Park simply because I'd want to make it as fast as reasonably possible. Ans I kept the line on Sheppard East to McCowan simply because Sheppard has greater densities at McCowan than any of the other possible alignments. Ultimately this is just a general vision, so I'm open to anything.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Regarding LRT grade separation, the LRT may not need to be fully grade separated if designed similar to Crosstown West. By that, I mean targeted grade separations at intersections expected to add significant delay to travel times. Additionally, targeted stop removals could be implemented, if those removals would be beneficial. I would hope that could get the SELRT up to around 30 km/h (from a current 22 km/h), which is the average operating speed of the Sheppard Subway. That could help make the thing more be more politically attractive.

In fact, I'd like to see Crosstown East and all other future LRTs get the same treatment as well. This should be standard design.

 

[Rainforest]

I would hope that could get the SELRT up to around 30 km/h (from a current 22 km/h), which is the average operating speed of the Sheppard Subway.

That would require wider stop spacing on the LRT than on the subway. Full grade separation inevitably gives some speed advantage over street-median operation, and the only way to offset such advantage is to stop less frequently.

But, wider stop-spacing is a non-starter from Vic Park to McCowan, as all the major N-S arterials are 800 m apart and the LRT needs to connect to the N-S routes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That would require wider stop spacing on the LRT than on the subway. Full grade separation inevitably gives some speed advantage over street-median operation, and the only way to offset such advantage is to stop less frequently.

The crosstown LRT west of Jane was expected to have 31 km/h average speeds with ~500 meter spacing.

 

[Rainforest]

The crosstown LRT west of Jane was expected to have 31 km/h average speeds with ~500 meter spacing.

Acording to my estimates, such operation is not even physically possible. I'll use meters and seconds (that's easier), and then convert to kph at the end.

Max. comfortable acceleration / deceleration rate: 2 m/s^2 (20% of "g"). Speed profile and timing for a 500 m stop spacing:

a) First 100 m: accelerating from 0 to 20 m/s, takes 10 sec
b) Next 300 m: constant speed 20 m/s, takes 15 sec
c) Last 100 m: decelerating from 20 to 0 m/s, takes 10 sec

I chose 20 m/s (72 kph) as top speed, that value makes the calculations very easy; but we can take a somewhat different value and arrive to a similar result.

Total travel time between stops: 10 + 15 + 10 = 35 s
Time at stop: 30 s
Combined travel time and time at stop: 65 s

Average speed: 500 m / 65 s = 7.7 m/s, or 7.7 x 3.6 = 27.7 kph

The above calculation does not take into account any delays such as waiting at the red lights (even if Transit Signal Priority is in place, it can't guarantee 100% green on demand). Thus, the speed would be even a bit lower in practice; closer to 26 kph.

Looking from another angle, it is hard to imagine how a street-median line with 500 m stop spacing can be as fast as the fully separated BD line with 700 m stop spacing.

 

[Rainforest]

Btw, they are re-designing the Eglinton West extension with a stop spacing quite a bit wider than 500 m. In that case, 31 kph or even 35 kph might be possible.