[E•MO•TION]

Can they bring back train 88 that is my favourite train??

I don’t foresee 88 returning until infrastructure upgrades are completed on the Guelph Subdivision.

With the discontinuation of the GO service to London, 88 would still conflict with 87 along with GO 3935 and 3937 which operate to Kitchener and Guelph Central respectively. Theoretically, moving 88 to an earlier ~18:50 departure from London should be feasible but would require moving 87 to a ~16:15 departure from Union to facilitate a meet at Kellys (and accounting for the increase in scheduled time needed west of Kitchener).

 

[Urban Sky]

Great to hear that we'll have more trips on the busier days of the week, but like @EnviroTO said, telling us the new train numbers is pretty meaningless when the new timetables aren't online yet. They don't even say what approximate time of day the new trips will run.

I guess we'll find out next week what these changes actually entail, when they release the new timetables. EDIT: though the timetables aren't out yet, the trip planner does seem to be updated, so I'll see if I can reverse-engineer a timetable.

Over at groups.io, Tom Box has already looked up and linked the timings for the new trains:

Here are the schedules of the restored Ottawa - Toronto trains.

#43
#647
#644
#646

Comparing with the last pre-pandemic timetable(March 8, 2020),
we see that #43 is very different, running about 2 h 20 min
later than in 2020. #647 runs about 30 min earlier than in
2020. #644 and 646 are very similar to 2020. None of those
trains stopped at Guildwood in 2020. All of them are to do
so on the new schedule.

Re: Big VIA service change on October 31st, 2023

groups.io

 

[reaperexpress]

88 certainly isn't coming back anytime soon, but it's long past time for Via to update the schedule for Via 87. It's been more than a year since Metrolinx completed its track speed upgrade project in Guelph (as well as several other previous upgrade projects), and Via still hasn't updated the travel times from Toronto to Kitchener. Via 87 is scheduled for 1h38 from Toronto to Kitchener, which is only 1 minute faster than the GO Trains on the same route. I've watched the train on VIA Moving Maps and it regularly arrives at Brampton, Guelph and Kitchener stations early, needing to sit around killing time at each one.

This is a big problem because it is physically impossible to cover Kitchener-London segment in the scheduled time, due to the CN track degradation which has happened since the schedule was written. It is absurd that the train sits around killing time on a route where there is not enough running time to get from one end to the other within the scheduled time.

They should cut about 10 minutes off the time from Toronto to Kitchener and add that time to the Kitchener-London portion to at least make it theoretically possible for the train to ever arrive in London on time.

Proposed changes to VIA 87 schedule:

I removed the stop at Georgetown to improve speed and reliability, by eliminating the current switching manoeuvre from the north track to the south track to reach the platform at Georgetown, then back to the north track to enter the GO Guelph Subdivision. Combined with the pre-existing track improvements, that change should bring the Toronto-Kitchener travel time under 90 minutes.

VIA doesn't stand a chance against GO in the regional rail market so VIA should focus on their (potential) strengths which are speed and comfort. Passengers in Georgetown who want to continue west of Kitchener can take the GO train to Guelph and catch the VIA train there.

Reaperexpress proposed timetable:

 

[reaperexpress]

I've updated my VIA Rail spreadsheet with the new Ottawa-Toronto trains.

Eastbound: trains 644 and 646 are new

Westbound: trains 43 and 647 are new

The new express train 43 is the fastest trip on the route.


And here's a quick glance at daily frequencies:

There is roughly hourly service from Kingston to Toronto:

 

[Bordercollie]

I've updated my Ottawa-Toronto VIA Rail spreadsheet with the new trains. Here's the new timetable (trains 43 and 647 are new):
View attachment 504995
The new express train 43 is the fastest trip on the route.


And here's a quick glance at daily frequencies:
View attachment 504994

There are 16 trains per day from Kingston to Toronto on Fridays:
View attachment 504993

4:10 is an LRC train set?

 

[Urban Sky]

Chris Vasquez literally reposted the train cycling on the previous page. Sorry but I'm getting a bit frustrated by how much you need everything spoon fed to you.

Here's the post you need:

In all fairness, I‘m not sure how much of use the current cycling plan is to predict the fleet deployment past the frequency increases of October 24 (especially for trains which are new and therefore not mentioned in that cycling plan) but I agree that it would be very surprising to see Venture trainsets venturing Southwest of Ottawa at this still relatively early stage of their introduction…

 

[Bordercollie]

In all fairness, I‘m not sure how much of use the current cycling plan is to predict the fleet deployment past the frequency increases of October 24 (especially for trains which are new and therefore not mentioned in that cycling plan) but I agree that it would be very surprising to see Venture trainsets venturing Southwest of Ottawa at this still relatively early stage of their introduction…

Given that only LRC's are allowed to run beyond 90mph would it be possible to have a HEP train set meet that schedule even with a P42 leading the train?

 

[Urban Sky]

Given that only LRC's are allowed to run beyond 90mph would it be possible to have a HEP train set meet that schedule even with a P42 leading the train?

The capability to reach speeds beyond 90 mph only matter once you‘ve reached 90 mph. If maximum speed was that decisive for what travel times are obtainable from CN in a timetable request, we wouldn’t have today only schedules which are at least half an hour slower than what has been obtained from CN for the same stopping pattern at some point in the past decades…

 

[reaperexpress]

Given that only LRC's are allowed to run beyond 90mph would it be possible to have a HEP train set meet that schedule even with a P42 leading the train?

I doubt there's much difference in average speed between the LRC coaches and HEP coahces. The maximum speed of HEP coaches is 95 mph (not 90), and there are only a handful of places along the line with a speed limit above 95 mph anyway. The two train types are both subject to the same "P+" speed limit, so there's no difference on curves.

The Venture sets will produce a more significant travel time saving compared to HEP/LRC coaches because they qualify for the "LRC" speed category (which was named after the LRC coaches back when they had a tilting mechanism). While there are only a few segments with a 100 mph "P+", speed there are large portions of the Kingston Subdivison with 100 mph "LRC" speed.

Many curves have an LRC speed limit (for Venture/Renaissance coaches) 10 mph higher than the P+ speed limit (for LRC/HEP coaches), which will allow Venture coaches to maintain speed much more than LRC/HEP coaches.

Curves through Belleville: Venture coaches can go 153 km/h, HEP/LRC coaches can only go 137 km/h.

Further to @Urban Sky 's comment, Via scheduled as little as 3h48 in 2014, and I don't think the track speeds now are any less than they were then:

One thing which has changed though is the dispatching from Toronto to Pickering, which is now done by Metrolinx rather than CN. From what I've seen, Metrolinx is significantly worse to Via than CN was. The increased GO train frequency and 2-track bottleneck due to Ontario Line construction don't help either.

 

[crs1026]

^thanks for the updated timetable @reaperexpress

The issue of top speed is somewhat moot when one realises that trains have to slow to 45 mph for crossovers…. The more trains that are out there, and the more times that VIA has to dodge around freight trains - or other VIA trains - the longer trip times will beccome.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

^thanks for the updated timetable @reaperexpress

The issue of top speed is somewhat moot when one realises that trains have to slow to 45 mph for crossovers…. The more trains that are out there, and the more times that VIA has to dodge around freight trains - or other VIA trains - the longer trip times will beccome.

- Paul

I‘ve been told at some point that the famous travel time of 3h59 was only achievable between Toronto and Montreal if the train did not have to switch tracks more than twice (!) between Dorval and Toronto - which is probably the best explanation why such travel times are utopic today, given that there are so many more (and longer and slower) freight trains traveling the same route today than even 20 years ago…

 

[Bordercollie]

I doubt there's much difference in average speed between the LRC coaches and HEP coahces. The maximum speed of HEP coaches is 95 mph (not 90), and there are only a handful of places along the line with a speed limit above 95 mph anyway. The two train types are both subject to the same "P+" speed limit, so there's no difference on curves.

The Venture sets will produce a more significant travel time saving compared to HEP/LRC coaches because they qualify for the "LRC" speed category (which was named after the LRC coaches back when they had a tilting mechanism). While there are only a few segments with a 100 mph "P+", speed there are large portions of the Kingston Subdivison with 100 mph "LRC" speed.
View attachment 505000

Many curves have an LRC speed limit (for Venture/Renaissance coaches) 10 mph higher than the P+ speed limit (for LRC/HEP coaches), which will allow Venture coaches to maintain speed much more than LRC/HEP coaches.

Curves through Belleville: Venture coaches can go 153 km/h, HEP/LRC coaches can only go 137 km/h.
View attachment 504998

Further to @Urban Sky 's comment, Via scheduled as little as 3h48 in 2014, and I don't think the track speeds now are any less than they were then:

One thing which has changed though is the dispatching from Toronto to Pickering, which is now done by Metrolinx rather than CN. From what I've seen, Metrolinx is significantly worse to Via than CN was. The increased GO train frequency and 2-track bottleneck due to Ontario Line construction don't help either.

Are there any other areas where they could upgrade it to LRC speeds if funding was available now that we have the equipment that can utilize it? Is it less than it once was?

So they can shave off another 15 min using venture sets?

 

[reaperexpress]

Are there any other areas where they could upgrade it to LRC speeds if funding was available now that we have the equipment that can utilize it? Is it less than it once was?

So they can shave off another 15 min using venture sets?

If the Via train were the only train on the line then I think it's plausible that a Charger+Venture train would be 15 minutes faster than a P42+LRC (primarily due to the higher curve speeds) but like @Urban Sky and @crs1026 already explained, in practice the average speed is determined more by the slowdowns (switches, waiting for other trains) than it is by the track speed.

We could theoretically upgrade the CN line with higher speed switches, more passing tracks etc., but I don't think anyone is interested in giving CN more money for that after what happened last time we tried. I think the best bet for upgrades would be the lines around Ottawa that Via owns and would continue to be used even if HFR/HSR is built. I described this in my blog post here.

Lengthening passing sidings and buildling higher-speed switches on the single-tracked Via-owned lines around Ottawa becomes increasingly important as train frequencies increase and train meets therefore become increasingly frequent. Currently every time two trains meet on a Via-owned line, one of them needs to spend several minutes sitting still in a siding. That is obviously a massive hit to average speeds.

On the Toronto-Ottawa line the top upgrades I'd prioritize are to build a second platform at Fallowfield station so trains can meet there without delaying each other, upgrade the track speed to 60 mph within Ottawa, as Via is already planning to do, and extend the double track east from Fallowfield and west from Ottawa Station.

 

[Urban Sky]

Are there any other areas where they could upgrade it to LRC speeds if funding was available now that we have the equipment that can utilize it? Is it less than it once was?

Ah, the pay-and-pray approach is back! What could possibly go wrong this time…?

So they can shave off another 15 min using venture sets?

It‘s really striking to me how grotesquely some people overestimate the effect of marginal speed increases, but let‘s do the maths (I‘m not at my computer, but the calculator App on my phone shall suffice), so let‘s compare how much travel time would be if we could maintain the maximum travel speed over the entire 335 miles (539 km) between MTRL and TRTO:

90 mph: 223 minutes (3h43)
95 mph: 212 minutes (3h32)
100 mph: 201 minutes (3h21)
105 mph: 191 minutes (3h11)
110 mph: 183 minutes (3h03)

Therefore, even under purely mathematical constraints (i.e. operationally impossible circumstances), you could only achieve a travel time saving of 11 minutes when raising the top speed from 95 to 100 mph, whereas in the real world, you could only unlock a tiny fraction of that, as only a relatively small part of the Kingston Sub currently allows top speed and even were you could go 100 mph, you‘ll often struggle to even reach 95 mph.

But let‘s look at that 3h21 figure for 335 miles at an average speed of 100 mph. Now add the slow approaches into and out of Toronto & Montreal, the intermediary stops at Dorval & Oshawa, all the curves which don’t allow for anything close to 100 mph (Kingston and Napannee, anyone?) and of course the time it takes to adjust the train speed between two speed limits … and it might finally become clear how extremely ambitious that 3h59 travel time was and how every other train in the system had to be shoved to the side to make it happen…

 

[reaperexpress]

It‘s really striking to me how grotesquely some people overestimate the effect of marginal speed increases, but let‘s do the maths (I‘m not at my computer, but the calculator App on my phone shall suffice), so let‘s compare how much travel time would be if we could maintain the maximum travel speed over the entire 335 miles (539 km) between MTRL and TRTO:

90 mph: 223 minutes (3h43)
95 mph: 212 minutes (3h32)
100 mph: 201 minutes (3h21)
105 mph: 191 minutes (3h11)
110 mph: 183 minutes (3h03)

Therefore, even under purely mathematical constraints (i.e. operationally impossible circumstances), you could only achieve a travel time saving of 11 minutes when raising the top speed from 95 to 100 mph, whereas in the real world, you could only unlock a tiny fraction of that, as only a relatively small part of the Kingston Sub currently allows top speed and even were you could go 100 mph, you‘ll often struggle to even reach 95 mph.

But let‘s look at that 3h21 figure for 335 miles at an average speed of 100 mph. Now add the slow approaches into and out of Toronto & Montreal, the intermediary stops at Dorval & Oshawa, all the curves which don’t allow for anything close to 100 mph (Kingston and Napannee, anyone?) and of course the time it takes to adjust the train speed between two speed limits … and it might finally become clear how extremely ambitious that 3h59 travel time was and how every other train in the system had to be shoved to the side to make it happen…

To be fair, shaving 15 minutes off the 4h10 trip from Ottawa to Toronto is nowhere near as ambitious as achieving 3h59 to Montréal.

Ottawa-Toronto in 4h10 = 106 km/h average
Ottawa-Toronto in 3h55 = 113 km/h average
Montréal-Toronto in 3h59 = 135 km/h average.

Given that the LRC speed limit is often 10 mph (16 km/h) higher than the P+ speed limit through curves and 5 mph (8 km/h) higher on the straights, it doesn't seem unreasonable to guess that it could provide that 7 km/h increase in average speed.

It seems like a stretch to ridicule the notion of a 3h55 train from Ottawa to Toronto given that Via operated a 3h59 schedule between Ottawa and Toronto for many years (and attemped the aforementioned 3h48 schedule for one year in 2014). I think it's not inconceivable that a Venture set could achieve it westbound in the morning and eastbound in the evening (so there are no meets on the Brockville or Smiths Falls subs)