[LowPolygon]

 

[TKTKTK]

you're throwing all sorts of contradictions around--all of them stemming from your ill-considered and unfleshed out use of this godawful word "elite".

Only because we're not really talking about any specific elite group - we're talking about them all in a general sense. The conversation's gone from the specific to the unwieldy and general. *shrug*

first you say that there is an 'elite structure' surrounding the work, guaranteeing its value. then you claim that "As long as the Mona Lisa is every pleb's favourite work it'll be too unsavoury to be considered anything but populist drivel by the elite" which is it? does the elite consider the Mona Lisa populist drivel, or are they guaranteeing its status as a masterpiece?

Both. The structure and support system applied to it foists it about the level of nearly any other work, but at the same time that very system regards its popularity with a sneer.

also, the fact the Mona Lisa is more visibly guarded in the Louvre than other works, is only evidence of its insurance value. i don't think security guards are part of the 'elite'.

The Louvre is the elite structure. The painting's positioning within the Louvre (even ignoring the security apparatus) is also elite.

 

[TKTKTK]

In the arts and design "elite" refers to the best work that is produced and to those who produce it. This tired concept of a secret society setting rules for artists to follow and putting up barriers to thwart the rest of the population from experiencing art verges on paranoia.

It isn't a secret society. It's a rather visible and vocal one, shrill even.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Last time I walked past the TD Centre I didn't hear your imaginary Star Chamber of shrill elitists heckling pedestrians and telling them they have to "understand 100 years worth of development" before they can "engage with the architecture" all around them - as you claim they must.

Art and design speaks directly to people. Those who have eyes to see it get it. And they get it directly from the source - the person who created it.

 

[TKTKTK]

Last time I walked past the TD Centre I didn't hear your imaginary Star Chamber of shrill elitists heckling pedestrians and telling them they have to "understand 100 years worth of development" before they can "engage with the architecture" all around them - as you claim they must.

When have I ever painted that picture? Anything else you'd like to claim for me?

Art and design speaks directly to people. Those who have eyes to see it get it. And they get it directly from the source - the person who created it.

Art and Design should seek to speak directly to people. But we often circumvent that by purposefully speaking in codes and symbols that alienate one group, while seeking to seduce another. Not all art and design is universal.

 

[Urban Shocker]

You've just said that this mysterious and unnamed elite that you keep referring to and who you claim controls the art world are "visible, vocal and shrill" and that before they came along "the average public has been able to engage with the architecture without having to understand 100 years worth of development".

Who are they? Where are they? I've never met them. Do they exist?

Who "circumvents" the direct connection between a work of art or a beautifully designed building and the person standing right in front of it and looking at it by "purposefully speaking in codes and symbols that alienate one group, while seeking to seduce another."?

 

[TKTKTK]

You've just said that this mysterious and unnamed elite that you keep referring to and who you claim controls the art world are "visible, vocal and shrill" and that before they came along "the average public has been able to engage with the architecture without having to understand 100 years worth of development".

I said they were visible, vocal, and shrill. Not that they stood around outside yelling at people. That was your weird exaggeration.

Who are they? Where are they? I've never met them. Do they exist?

There is no elite structure at all? Really? I can understand arguing that the elite doesn't have any real influence, but arguing that there IS no elite?

Who "circumvents" the direct connection between a work of art or a beautifully designed building and the person standing right in front of it and looking at it by "purposefully speaking in codes and symbols that alienate one group, while seeking to seduce another."?

The designer or creator not seeking to communicate in a universal language. David Carson as opposed to Paul Rand.

 

[Urban Shocker]

So who are the members of this visible, vocal and shrill conspiracy of local elitists that insists that everyone has to "understand 100 years worth of development" before they can "engage with the architecture" of a building?

If they're so visible we must be able to see them. Who are they? Where do they hang out?

And if they're so vocal we must have heard them say something, so what have they said?

And which local buildings have gone up as a result of the evil influence of your visible, vocal and ( imaginary? ) shrill elite? They must have had some successes, surely?


David Carson's designs are hardly obscure.

 

[Hydrogen]

Maybe it's a silent and well-cloaked conspiracy of visible, vocal and shrill elitists.

 

[LowPolygon]

Only because we're not really talking about any specific elite group - we're talking about them all in a general sense. The conversation's gone from the specific to the unwieldy and general. *shrug*

Both. The structure and support system applied to it foists it about the level of nearly any other work, but at the same time that very system regards its popularity with a sneer.

The Louvre is the elite structure. The painting's positioning within the Louvre (even ignoring the security apparatus) is also elite.

rather than trying to contort yourself into all sorts of awkward positions in order to justify your specious theories, why can't you just admit that you are really just engaging in completely sophistic reasoning--and that whenever you mention this fictional "elite" you are really just winging it.

 

[TKTKTK]

rather than trying to contort yourself into all sorts of awkward positions in order to justify your specious theories, why can't you just admit that you are really just engaging in completely sophistic reasoning--and that whenever you mention this fictional "elite" you are really just winging it.

? Feel free not to reply if you think I'm rapping on empty.

 

[TKTKTK]

So who are the members of this visible, vocal and shrill conspiracy of local elitists that insists that everyone has to "understand 100 years worth of development" before they can "engage with the architecture" of a building?

You're being pedantic.

If they're so visible we must be able to see them. Who are they? Where do they hang out?

You're being pedantic.

And if they're so vocal we must have heard them say something, so what have they said?

You're being pedantic

And which local buildings have gone up as a result of the evil influence of your visible, vocal and ( imaginary? ) shrill elite? They must have had some successes, surely?

You're being pedantic.

David Carson's designs are hardly obscure.

WHAT?! Carson's work was intentionally obscure. His whole point was challenging the established rules of graphic design and throwing everything on it's head. Hardly obscure! Pick up a raygun!

 

[Urban Shocker]

Don't be so geriatric. That was almost 20 years ago. The world moves on.

Obviously this "elite" exists only in your head ... since you can't name any of them!

Enjoy the company of your imaginary friends.

 

[TKTKTK]

Don't be so geriatric. That was almost 20 years ago. The world moves on.

Geriatric? What are you talking about?

Obviously this "elite" exists only in your head ... since you can't name any of them!

That's the most ridiculous thing you've ever tried to posit. Even more ridiculous than what you drone on about with the COC.

What names should I name? Where should I start, where should I end? Should I name every single variation on elite power structures that exist? Or is there just one that you're skeptical of?

Enjoy the company of your imaginary friends.

See you tomorrow! I hope you're this pleasant in person!

 

[freshcutgrass]

Last time I walked past the TD Centre I didn't hear your imaginary Star Chamber of shrill elitists heckling pedestrians and telling them they have to "understand 100 years worth of development" before they can "engage with the architecture" all around them - as you claim they must.

But don't be so sure there isn't a Dark knight keeping an eye on TD Centre, silently dispatching those who do not following Miesian doctrine.

Careful...God is in the details.